Top States (2023 Post Season/2024 Season)

[kyle]

I did some digging through some OLD threads and found this goodie hornrank.proboards.com/thread/174/top-states
I thought that this might be an interesting conversation with a few notable changes nowadays! My personal ranking of the Top Six Marching Band States right now would be something like this (I'm only doing six bc I don't have enough knowledge to do more, do however many you want):


1. Indiana
2. Texas
3. Ohio
4. Florida
5. Illinois
6. Utah

I love how much all of the bands from these states have improved! especially Ohio and Utah.


Edit: I'm somewhat flexible between Florida and Ohio, as well as between Illinois and Utah

Edit#2: I also have no clue what I'm doing so... yeah, don't lynch me :)

[hewhowaits]

I won't get into the Indiana/Texas vs. Texas/Indiana "discussion" at this point, but leaving out Oklahoma in favor of Florida, Illinois, or Utah is just naive. And there is a solid argument for Kentucky to be on any list because of the depth of fantastic small school bands in the state.

[philodemus]

We must first define terms. Are we ranking the tip top of each state, or the overall depth? Is this about the outstanding bands of each state, or the average?

Either way, 1 and 2 are the same two states with quibbles about ordering.

But, if using depth as the measure, then my beloved Commonwealth is probably 3-5. Perhaps Florida has passed us since 2019. Utah and Ohio have certainly not, and Illinois… well. Yeah, they haven’t either.

This fact becomes indisputably clear when small schools are paid attention to. Good ones outside the Bluegrass as rare as hen’s teeth.

[ilikeguard]

With all due respect Utah over Oklahoma is crazy business when OK is an easy third place here

[dbalash]

Illinois top 5? Ehhhhhh.

[hewhowaits]

Apr 26, 2024 6:08:00 GMT -6 dbalash said:

Illinois top 5? Ehhhhhh.

Welcome back to the 20th century?

[coleeich]

*cracks knuckles*

[ilikeguard]

Happy 7:00 AM

1. Indiana visually, Texas musically
2. Whatever the other one is depending on what you look at more
3. Oklahoma
4. Kentucky
5. Florida
6. Ohio
7. Tennessee
8. Illinois
9. California
10. Missouri
11. Michigan
12. Utah
13. South Carolina
14. Arkansas
15. Mississippi
16. Georgia
17. Pennsylvania
18. Minnesota
19. South Dakota
20. New Mexico
21. Kansas
22. Maryland
23. New Jersey
24. Wisconsin
25. Arizona
26. Colorado
27. Louisiana
28. Virginia
29. Nebraska
30. Massachusetts
31. North Carolina
32. Alabama
33. Iowa
34. Hawaii
35. Washington
36. Connecticut
37. Rhode Island
38. Oregon
39. Delaware
40. At this point I’m just filling in the rest of the spots for fun. Wyoming
41. Montana
42. Nevada
43. North Dakota
44. Idaho
45. West Virginia
46. New York
47. Alaska
48. Maine
49. New Hampshire
50. Vermont

I will not be explaining any of my logic. I didn’t even know we had this many states

[bigtrombone]

1. South Dakota
2-50. Everyone else

This is my unbiased list. I will not be taking any questions. Thank you all for your time.

[hewhowaits]

Apr 26, 2024 6:33:40 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

40. At this point I’m just filling in the rest of the spots for fun. Wyoming

42. Nevada

I will not be explaining any of my logic. I didn’t even know we had this many states

Nevada definitely shouldn't be in your "just filling in" list. They've got a history with BOA events.

As for not even knowing we have this many states, I'll just swallow may comment about public education today.

[philodemus]

At this point, it might be more fun to point out underappreciated band states.

New York, for instance, has a decent statewide circuit and a bit more depth than one might expect.

[dbalash]

Apr 26, 2024 7:14:54 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

Apr 26, 2024 6:33:40 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

40. At this point I’m just filling in the rest of the spots for fun. Wyoming

42. Nevada

I will not be explaining any of my logic. I didn’t even know we had this many states

Nevada definitely shouldn't be in your "just filling in" list. They've got a history with BOA events.

As for not even knowing we have this many states, I'll just swallow may comment about public education today.

[rickyrosay]

Apr 26, 2024 6:33:40 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

Happy 7:00 AM

1. Indiana visually, Texas musically
2. Whatever the other one is depending on what you look at more
3. Oklahoma
4. Kentucky
5. Florida
6. Ohio
7. Tennessee
8. Illinois
9. California
10. Missouri
11. Michigan
12. Utah
13. South Carolina
14. Arkansas
15. Mississippi
16. Georgia
17. Pennsylvania
18. Minnesota
19. South Dakota
20. New Mexico
21. Kansas
22. Maryland
23. New Jersey
24. Wisconsin
25. Arizona
26. Colorado
27. Louisiana
28. Virginia
29. Nebraska
30. Massachusetts
31. North Carolina
32. Alabama
33. Iowa
34. Hawaii
35. Washington
36. Connecticut
37. Rhode Island
38. Oregon
39. Delaware
40. At this point I’m just filling in the rest of the spots for fun. Wyoming
41. Montana
42. Nevada
43. North Dakota
44. Idaho
45. West Virginia
46. New York
47. Alaska
48. Maine
49. New Hampshire
50. Vermont

I will not be explaining any of my logic. I didn’t even know we had this many states

I wish I could fully express how much your, "I didn't even know we had this many states" made me laugh. But I digress. Time for some discourse. Illinois should be 17th at the highest and I will hear no other arguments. And until Indiana gets 16 more regionals, they are behind Texas! But until Texas can have one group medal in every class of every wing of WGI then they are behind Indiana. I want to see what happens when you put each states top 5 programs up against each other and see where we land. My guess? Hawaii wins because all of us would rather live in Maui. So that's that. 

[hewhowaits]

Apr 26, 2024 7:47:40 GMT -6 rickyrosay said:

I want to see what happens when you put each states top 5 programs up against each other and see where we land. My guess? Hawaii wins because all of us would rather live in Maui. So that's that. 

Score it like a cross country meet and Texas is a clear 1, Indiana 2, Oklahoma probably beats out Ohio for 3rd most years.

Not all of us would rather live in Maui. I'd take the PNW, Southeast Alaska, most of the mountain West, and the Finger Lakes region over Hawaii as places to live.

[dbalash]

Apr 26, 2024 7:58:20 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

Apr 26, 2024 7:47:40 GMT -6 rickyrosay said:

I want to see what happens when you put each states top 5 programs up against each other and see where we land. My guess? Hawaii wins because all of us would rather live in Maui. So that's that. 

Score it like a cross country meet and Texas is a clear 1, Indiana 2, Oklahoma probably beats out Ohio for 3rd most years.

Not all of us would rather live in Maui. I'd take the PNW, Southeast Alaska, most of the mountain West, and the Finger Lakes region over Hawaii as places to live.

Give me the Big Island over Maui any day.

[ilikeguard]

I didn’t even see the 2023-2024 on this bye

[rickyrosay]

Apr 26, 2024 7:58:20 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

Apr 26, 2024 7:47:40 GMT -6 rickyrosay said:

I want to see what happens when you put each states top 5 programs up against each other and see where we land. My guess? Hawaii wins because all of us would rather live in Maui. So that's that. 

Score it like a cross country meet and Texas is a clear 1, Indiana 2, Oklahoma probably beats out Ohio for 3rd most years.

Not all of us would rather live in Maui. I'd take the PNW, Southeast Alaska, most of the mountain West, and the Finger Lakes region over Hawaii as places to live.

This is fair. I suppose I didn't think of all our forum compadres who prefer the cold. If I'm actually being truthful. Who am I kidding? Give me the Northeast any day of the week. But especially the first two weeks of October. 

[ilikeguard]

Apr 26, 2024 7:14:54 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

Apr 26, 2024 6:33:40 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

40. At this point I’m just filling in the rest of the spots for fun. Wyoming

42. Nevada

I will not be explaining any of my logic. I didn’t even know we had this many states

Nevada definitely shouldn't be in your "just filling in" list. They've got a history with BOA events.

As for not even knowing we have this many states, I'll just swallow may comment about public education today.

You know I thought about putting some research behind my list but I decided just to go on guesswork and a prayer

[bigtrombone]

Apr 26, 2024 6:33:40 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

43. North Dakota

Honestly, North Dakota should be 50th only for the fact that I cannot think of or find information on any competitive fall marching bands in the state no matter how much I look into it. If there is a competitive marching band in North Dakota someone please enlighten me.

[yayband914]

Apr 26, 2024 6:33:40 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

Happy 7:00 AM

1. Indiana visually, Texas musically
2. Whatever the other one is depending on what you look at more
3. Oklahoma
4. Kentucky
5. Florida
6. Ohio
7. Tennessee
8. Illinois
9. California
10. Missouri
11. Michigan
12. Utah
13. South Carolina
14. Arkansas
15. Mississippi
16. Georgia
17. Pennsylvania
18. Minnesota
19. South Dakota
20. New Mexico
21. Kansas
22. Maryland
23. New Jersey
24. Wisconsin
25. Arizona
26. Colorado
27. Louisiana
28. Virginia
29. Nebraska
30. Massachusetts
31. North Carolina
32. Alabama
33. Iowa
34. Hawaii
35. Washington
36. Connecticut
37. Rhode Island
38. Oregon
39. Delaware
40. At this point I’m just filling in the rest of the spots for fun. Wyoming
41. Montana
42. Nevada
43. North Dakota
44. Idaho
45. West Virginia
46. New York
47. Alaska
48. Maine
49. New Hampshire
50. Vermont

I will not be explaining any of my logic. I didn’t even know we had this many states

Wisconsin is EXTREMELY flattered at their placement (they should be more like 36th or 37th in the context of this particular ranking).

[hawknate14]

Apr 26, 2024 7:15:59 GMT -6 philodemus said:

At this point, it might be more fun to point out underappreciated band states.

New York, for instance, has a decent statewide circuit and a bit more depth than one might expect.

This, New York has one of the strongest and oldest state circuits but are kind of cursed by having no BOA shows particularly close for most of the top bands(Deleware/Maryland is about 5 or 6 hours for the Syracuse Area Bands, as is Toledo) which means we see likely 2 bands each year at most. (The Long Island bands have Piscataway, but that is consistently the day before states, so they never go)   

[ilikeguard]

Apr 26, 2024 8:31:19 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Apr 26, 2024 6:33:40 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

Happy 7:00 AM

1. Indiana visually, Texas musically
2. Whatever the other one is depending on what you look at more
3. Oklahoma
4. Kentucky
5. Florida
6. Ohio
7. Tennessee
8. Illinois
9. California
10. Missouri
11. Michigan
12. Utah
13. South Carolina
14. Arkansas
15. Mississippi
16. Georgia
17. Pennsylvania
18. Minnesota
19. South Dakota
20. New Mexico
21. Kansas
22. Maryland
23. New Jersey
24. Wisconsin
25. Arizona
26. Colorado
27. Louisiana
28. Virginia
29. Nebraska
30. Massachusetts
31. North Carolina
32. Alabama
33. Iowa
34. Hawaii
35. Washington
36. Connecticut
37. Rhode Island
38. Oregon
39. Delaware
40. At this point I’m just filling in the rest of the spots for fun. Wyoming
41. Montana
42. Nevada
43. North Dakota
44. Idaho
45. West Virginia
46. New York
47. Alaska
48. Maine
49. New Hampshire
50. Vermont

I will not be explaining any of my logic. I didn’t even know we had this many states

Wisconsin is EXTREMELY flattered at their placement (they should be more like 36th or 37th in the context of this particular ranking).

I am a Greendale stan

[kyle]

My revised list from NOT 1am 😅

1. Indiana/Texas
3. Oklahoma
4. Ohio
5. Florida
6. Tennessee
7. Illinois
8. Kentucky
9. Missouri
10. Utah
11. California (Keep in mind they are close enough that of it weren't for AF that Cali would beat Utah)
12. Michigan

And once again, I still don't know what I'm doing

[N.E. Brigand]

As an Ohioan, my sense is that Ohio might be too high on these lists, but I'd want to be somewhat systematic in determining that. So here are some numbers that others can use to compare to their states. I counted 199 competition bands in Ohio in 2023 (out of approximately 900 Ohio high schools, per Wikipedia, although some of the schools on that list are career centers or very small private schools, neither of which would ever field any band). This is how many of them did or, in my opinion, conceivably could have scored as follows at Grand Nationals last year:

A. 95 or higher -- 0
B. from 90 to 94.99 -- 1
C. from 85 to 89.9 -- 2
D. from 80 to 84.9 -- 2
E. from 75 to 79.9 -- 14
F. from 70 to 74.9 -- 18
G. from 65 to 69.9 -- 26

And the remaining 136 bands would score below that.

I came up with that by comparing other bands' performances to those of the 15 bands who scored 65 or higher at Grand Nationals (from William Mason at 93.00 to Avon at 67.45). Inevitably this relies in some part on my personal tastes, but I tried to be mindful of scores awarded at other Bands of America events last fall.

Ohio is the seventh largest state by population. Should we be determining this on a per capita basis?

[Allohak]

Apr 26, 2024 16:27:15 GMT -6 N.E. Brigand said:

As an Ohioan, my sense is that Ohio might be too high on these lists, but I'd want to be somewhat systematic in determining that. So here are some numbers that others can use to compare to their states. I counted 199 competition bands in Ohio in 2023 (out of approximately 900 Ohio high schools, per Wikipedia, although some of the schools on that list are career centers or very small private schools, neither of which would ever field any band). This is how many of them did or, in my opinion, conceivably could have scored as follows at Grand Nationals last year:

A. 95 or higher -- 0
B. from 90 to 94.99 -- 1
C. from 85 to 89.9 -- 2
D. from 80 to 84.9 -- 2
E. from 75 to 79.9 -- 14
F. from 70 to 74.9 -- 18
G. from 65 to 69.9 -- 26

And the remaining 136 bands would score below that.

I came up with that by comparing other bands' performances to those of the 15 bands who scored 65 or higher at Grand Nationals (from William Mason at 93.00 to Avon at 67.45). Inevitably this relies in some part on my personal tastes, but I tried to be mindful of scores awarded at other Bands of America events last fall.

Ohio is the seventh largest state by population. Should we be determining this on a per capita basis?

As another Ohioan, I would have to agree. There are a couple-dozen programs of competitive relevance and then the rest are...just not. Top 10 certainly, but top 5 might be a stretch taking entirety into account.

The per capita question is a very interesting one.

[hewhowaits]

Apr 27, 2024 5:47:27 GMT -6 Allohak said:

Apr 26, 2024 16:27:15 GMT -6 N.E. Brigand said:

As an Ohioan, my sense is that Ohio might be too high on these lists, but I'd want to be somewhat systematic in determining that. So here are some numbers that others can use to compare to their states. I counted 199 competition bands in Ohio in 2023 (out of approximately 900 Ohio high schools, per Wikipedia, although some of the schools on that list are career centers or very small private schools, neither of which would ever field any band). This is how many of them did or, in my opinion, conceivably could have scored as follows at Grand Nationals last year:

A. 95 or higher -- 0
B. from 90 to 94.99 -- 1
C. from 85 to 89.9 -- 2
D. from 80 to 84.9 -- 2
E. from 75 to 79.9 -- 14
F. from 70 to 74.9 -- 18
G. from 65 to 69.9 -- 26

And the remaining 136 bands would score below that.

I came up with that by comparing other bands' performances to those of the 15 bands who scored 65 or higher at Grand Nationals (from William Mason at 93.00 to Avon at 67.45). Inevitably this relies in some part on my personal tastes, but I tried to be mindful of scores awarded at other Bands of America events last fall.

Ohio is the seventh largest state by population. Should we be determining this on a per capita basis?

As another Ohioan, I would have to agree. There are a couple-dozen programs of competitive relevance and then the rest are...just not. Top 10 certainly, but top 5 might be a stretch taking entirety into account.

The per capita question is a very interesting one.

Can't take issue with the assessment, but go deeper in most states and it's similar.

For Indiana, the numbers drop off quickly after you get past the top 10 bands or so. Bands from smaller classes in ISSMA (some make state finals) that also compete in MSBA are comparable to similarly sized Ohio schools. That would equate to average Indiana bands being on a par with average Ohio bands.

Texas stands up well for at least one hundred bands, but what percentage of the reported 1077 bands that competed in 2019 UIL would score better than 75 at BOA? N.E. Brigand estimates 15% of Ohio's 199 competitive bands. A similar analysis would require Texas to have 160. Certainly not a stretch (I believe closer to 20% of Texas bands would fall into the category), but is the AVERAGE Texas band really that much better than the AVERAGE Ohio band (with a much smaller sample to perform the analysis).

Just looking at the two states that we all agree are the top two, if you dig deeper you can argue that a random band from either of those top two is no different than a random band from states farther down the list. It's the very top of the heap that will always define where states line up relative to each other. Thus my previous "score it like a cross country meet" suggestion (BTW - using standard scoring, each major metro area of Texas would beat every state except Indiana and in any given year, each of them might beat Indiana - San Antonio being the possible exception).

[philodemus]

Per capita, Kentucky (26th by population, 4.5 million people) and Oklahoma (28th by population, just over 4 million) are probably your leaders?

Also, per capita REALLY shakes up the longest running rivalry in the marching arts: Indiana is punching way above its weight with only 6.8 million people to Texas’ 30 million.

[ccbop]

I think that per capita is close a more bias free analysis but a better analysis may be to find a median of the competitive bands across the state. This way a state with a higher value is consistently preforming at a higher level than states with just one or two great bands. This would probably put states like Indiana at the top because they have a large number of great groups without being diluted with so-so bands. Texas would be at more of a disadvantage because of its size though. This wouldn’t guarantee small state dominance though due to often lack of passion in the more rural and less musically populated areas.

[Jake W.]

I've posted this a few times throughout the years, but if we are talking strictly instrumental music education, Texas is by far the leading state, and that's why any random Texas group will always punch well above their weight in an out of state contest in the music captions. The entirety of Texas's incredible musical prowess is built via the Eddie Green school of thought from U of H, which puts a relentless emphasis on pedagogy over anything else. This school of thought has permeated all of Texas (and by "Texas", I do mean the triangle - the RGV bands & West Texas bands aren't necessarily included in this), AND all future Texas music educators get their education in Texas (why wouldn't they?), making the emphasis on pedagogy self-perpetuating. I've used this analogy before, but that doesn't mean that any random star player in any band in any other state isn't as skilled on their instrument as a soloist from Hebron et al., but it DOES mean that X Texas band's 13th, 18th, & 26th chair clarinet players, for example, are VASTLY more competent on their instruments than X band's lower clarinet players from a different state. Same with random Texas band's third trumpets, etc., and that's where the key difference is that makes Texas so untouchable in music.

It's worth noting that the Eddie Green school of thought has bled into Oklahoma, which is in my opinion the reason the state is starting to surge in the marching band world. I will also note that of course there are individual bands in other states that put a huge emphasis on pedagogy, Mason currently and Randy Greenwell's years at Lawrence Central, for example, but as someone who was raised in the Midwest and completed his music education training there, I can verify that what goes on at those select programs is NOT a statewide teaching style, whereas in the Texas Triangle, this deep emphasis on pedagogy is the norm. I will make one more quick note that this school of thought isn't the end-all be-all; there are limitations - you're going to have a harder time getting these Texas groups to play more rubato/orchestral, or tackling any piece that's more passion-driven than technique-driven, but the fact remains that if you're talking about individual tone quality, scales, technique, the brick & mortar stuff, Texas leads the pack by far. Again, it's not about the top bands from each state, who are all equal to the top Texas groups, but more about the middle pack groups' playing abilities in Texas vs. outside of Texas.


I do agree that the thought of percentages or per capita, though, is a compelling one. Texas has a good 30 bands year in and year out that could generally attend GN and make a case for Finals. That's insane, until you realize they have about 500 5A & 6A schools, or generally schools of the size that GN Finalist bands come from, so maybe 6% of their appropriate-sized schools have bands that could make GN Finals. That's pretty scaleable to other states, I think. The interesting argument to me at the moment might be how many bands from each state could make a solid push for GN Semis (maybe scoring an 80-82 on BOA sheets), but that's more difficult to speculate. I do think that's where Texas would shine.

Apologies for the lengthy post (as if I ever post anything but a novel!), but I wanted to add too that I can't believe how much this list of top states has changed post-Covid, or the last five years. Georgia is generally nowhere to be found, but 10-15 years ago they would have been in everyone's top 5. Michigan doesn't seem to be as strong as it once was with groups down the bench (still just as strong with the top few). Utah, Tennessee, & Oklahoma have absolutely surged into the national scene with groups outside of the top 1-2 stalwarts. Five years ago I probably would have told you North Carolina was the next hot marching band area, same with the PNW; both seem to have fizzled out. I saw Ohio a few times and reflexively laughed, but then I realized that the Lakotas, Miamisburg, Milford, Worthington Kilbourne, etc have evolved into the current times, whereas Ohio really didn't have a bench of Semis-tier BOA groups in the decades prior. Interesting stuff!

[es203]

Apr 27, 2024 13:45:29 GMT -6 Jake W. said:

I've posted this a few times throughout the years, but if we are talking strictly instrumental music education, Texas is by far the leading state, and that's why any random Texas group will always punch well above their weight in an out of state contest in the music captions. The entirety of Texas's incredible musical prowess is built via the Eddie Green school of thought from U of H, which puts a relentless emphasis on pedagogy over anything else. This school of thought has permeated all of Texas (and by "Texas", I do mean the triangle - the RGV bands & West Texas bands aren't necessarily included in this), AND all future Texas music educators get their education in Texas (why wouldn't they?), making the emphasis on pedagogy self-perpetuating. I've used this analogy before, but that doesn't mean that any random star player in any band in any other state isn't as skilled on their instrument as a soloist from Hebron et al., but it DOES mean that X Texas band's 13th, 18th, & 26th chair clarinet players, for example, are VASTLY more competent on their instruments than X band's lower clarinet players from a different state. Same with random Texas band's third trumpets, etc., and that's where the key difference is that makes Texas so untouchable in music.

It's worth noting that the Eddie Green school of thought has bled into Oklahoma, which is in my opinion the reason the state is starting to surge in the marching band world. I will also note that of course there are individual bands in other states that put a huge emphasis on pedagogy, Mason currently and Randy Greenwell's years at Lawrence Central, for example, but as someone who was raised in the Midwest and completed his music education training there, I can verify that what goes on at those select programs is NOT a statewide teaching style, whereas in the Texas Triangle, this deep emphasis on pedagogy is the norm. I will make one more quick note that this school of thought isn't the end-all be-all; there are limitations - you're going to have a harder time getting these Texas groups to play more rubato/orchestral, or tackling any piece that's more passion-driven than technique-driven, but the fact remains that if you're talking about individual tone quality, scales, technique, the brick & mortar stuff, Texas leads the pack by far. Again, it's not about the top bands from each state, who are all equal to the top Texas groups, but more about the middle pack groups' playing abilities in Texas vs. outside of Texas.


I do agree that the thought of percentages or per capita, though, is a compelling one. Texas has a good 30 bands year in and year out that could generally attend GN and make a case for Finals. That's insane, until you realize they have about 500 5A & 6A schools, or generally schools of the size that GN Finalist bands come from, so maybe 6% of their appropriate-sized schools have bands that could make GN Finals. That's pretty scaleable to other states, I think. The interesting argument to me at the moment might be how many bands from each state could make a solid push for GN Semis (maybe scoring an 80-82 on BOA sheets), but that's more difficult to speculate. I do think that's where Texas would shine.

Apologies for the lengthy post (as if I ever post anything but a novel!), but I wanted to add too that I can't believe how much this list of top states has changed post-Covid, or the last five years. Georgia is generally nowhere to be found, but 10-15 years ago they would have been in everyone's top 5. Michigan doesn't seem to be as strong as it once was with groups down the bench (still just as strong with the top few). Utah, Tennessee, & Oklahoma have absolutely surged into the national scene with groups outside of the top 1-2 stalwarts. Five years ago I probably would have told you North Carolina was the next hot marching band area, same with the PNW; both seem to have fizzled out. I saw Ohio a few times and reflexively laughed, but then I realized that the Lakotas, Miamisburg, Milford, Worthington Kilbourne, etc have evolved into the current times, whereas Ohio really didn't have a bench of Semis-tier BOA groups in the decades prior. Interesting stuff!

I get that every music program was hurt by COVID, but North Carolina seems to be one of the states it was the worst. Definitely a shame