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Post by aiden on Aug 23, 2023 10:28:49 GMT -6
Use this thread for anything marching band related in Kentucky for 2023-2024
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ccbop
Senior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by ccbop on Aug 23, 2023 18:13:07 GMT -6
Two things: 1. What are people’s top ten KY bands (KMEA or not) 2. Since many small districts in KY are being merged into the larger county schools what is the possibility of KY being a more competitive state in the next 10-15 years. This is really prevalent in northern Kentucky with districts like Newport, Covington, Dayton and Bellevue.
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Post by hewhowaits on Aug 24, 2023 5:16:44 GMT -6
Two things: 1. What are people’s top ten KY bands (KMEA or not) 2. Since many small districts in KY are being merged into the larger county schools what is the possibility of KY being a more competitive state in the next 10-15 years. This is really prevalent in northern Kentucky with districts like Newport, Covington, Dayton and Bellevue. The small schools in Northern Kentucky tend to compete primarily in MSBA. As they combine to larger schools with pooled resources, we may see them both become more competitive at MSBA and participate more at KMEA. A win-win-win (students-MSBA circuit-KMEA).
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Post by philodemus on Aug 24, 2023 5:46:36 GMT -6
Two things: 1. What are people’s top ten KY bands (KMEA or not) Top 10 right now feels harder than usual given that some of our premier programs are undergoing major changes and it's difficult to know how they've weathered them until we start to see some shows/videos. With contests starting in 2 weeks we will start to have some answers. Right now, group that are definitely, no questions asked in our Top Ten would be Lafayette, Madison Central, Murray, Beechwood, Estill. Then there are 'probably, but we need to see how they've weathered some storms,' like Bourbon, Anderson. Then, 'probably, but where they fall depends on how the storm weatherers have weathered' like North Hardin, Ryle, Henry Clay, Campbell County. Then there's my hipster/contrarian pick... Christian County. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious and will be called on it!
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Post by Allohak on Aug 24, 2023 6:48:45 GMT -6
Two things: 1. What are people’s top ten KY bands (KMEA or not) Top 10 right now feels harder than usual given that some of our premier programs are undergoing major changes and it's difficult to know how they've weathered them until we start to see some shows/videos. With contests starting in 2 weeks we will start to have some answers. Right now, group that are definitely, no questions asked in our Top Ten would be Lafayette, Madison Central, Murray, Beechwood, Estill. Then there are 'probably, but we need to see how they've weathered some storms,' like Bourbon, Anderson. Then, 'probably, but where they fall depends on how the storm weatherers have weathered' like North Hardin, Ryle, Henry Clay, Campbell County. Then there's my hipster/contrarian pick... Christian County. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious and will be called on it! PLD, Central Hardin, Louisville Male, and GRC seem relevant?
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Post by philodemus on Aug 24, 2023 6:59:10 GMT -6
Top 10 right now feels harder than usual given that some of our premier programs are undergoing major changes and it's difficult to know how they've weathered them until we start to see some shows/videos. With contests starting in 2 weeks we will start to have some answers. Right now, group that are definitely, no questions asked in our Top Ten would be Lafayette, Madison Central, Murray, Beechwood, Estill. Then there are 'probably, but we need to see how they've weathered some storms,' like Bourbon, Anderson. Then, 'probably, but where they fall depends on how the storm weatherers have weathered' like North Hardin, Ryle, Henry Clay, Campbell County. Then there's my hipster/contrarian pick... Christian County. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious and will be called on it! PLD, Central Hardin, Louisville Male, and GRC seem relevant? They do! Not sure who I would bump out of my already too-long-list, though? The same could be said for Madisonville North Hopkins, and probably a few others. Glasgow, maybe. There's been a bit of positive buzz about PLD in particular this season, but I haven't seen video yet.
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zappak
Senior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 12:22:48 GMT -6
Two things: 1. What are people’s top ten KY bands (KMEA or not) Top 10 right now feels harder than usual given that some of our premier programs are undergoing major changes and it's difficult to know how they've weathered them until we start to see some shows/videos. With contests starting in 2 weeks we will start to have some answers. Right now, group that are definitely, no questions asked in our Top Ten would be Lafayette, Madison Central, Murray, Beechwood, Estill. Then there are 'probably, but we need to see how they've weathered some storms,' like Bourbon, Anderson. Then, 'probably, but where they fall depends on how the storm weatherers have weathered' like North Hardin, Ryle, Henry Clay, Campbell County. Then there's my hipster/contrarian pick... Christian County. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious and will be called on it! I wouldn't be so quick to put Estill in your top 10. They're going through changes as well. They lost their assistant, who was also their designer.
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zappak
Senior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 12:23:54 GMT -6
Top 10 right now feels harder than usual given that some of our premier programs are undergoing major changes and it's difficult to know how they've weathered them until we start to see some shows/videos. With contests starting in 2 weeks we will start to have some answers. Right now, group that are definitely, no questions asked in our Top Ten would be Lafayette, Madison Central, Murray, Beechwood, Estill. Then there are 'probably, but we need to see how they've weathered some storms,' like Bourbon, Anderson. Then, 'probably, but where they fall depends on how the storm weatherers have weathered' like North Hardin, Ryle, Henry Clay, Campbell County. Then there's my hipster/contrarian pick... Christian County. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious and will be called on it! PLD, Central Hardin, Louisville Male, and GRC seem relevant? Male hasn't really been relevant for a while now. They seem to be going through something. Their schedule is always weird, large band but doesn't compete well. A lot of potential that just seems to be lost in the herd at this point.
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zappak
Senior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 12:33:59 GMT -6
Two things: 1. What are people’s top ten KY bands (KMEA or not) Top 10 right now feels harder than usual given that some of our premier programs are undergoing major changes and it's difficult to know how they've weathered them until we start to see some shows/videos. With contests starting in 2 weeks we will start to have some answers. Right now, group that are definitely, no questions asked in our Top Ten would be Lafayette, Madison Central, Murray, Beechwood, Estill. Then there are 'probably, but we need to see how they've weathered some storms,' like Bourbon, Anderson. Then, 'probably, but where they fall depends on how the storm weatherers have weathered' like North Hardin, Ryle, Henry Clay, Campbell County. Then there's my hipster/contrarian pick... Christian County. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious and will be called on it! George Rogers Clark and Eastern are on the rise in 5A. GRC is still steadily growing under their new director. Eastern just received a big upgrade in their assistant position, who has already grown the program back to 100 members after being down to 60 something last year. There are also pictures of North Hardins props on Facebook from rehearsals. They look to be slightly larger than last year in membership as well, but it's hard to tell without seeing the whole field. In 4A you have Harrison County who now has Bourbon Counties previous director, Michael Stone. There's a clip of Bourbon on Facebook, and it's something. Anderson is a big question mark right now for everyone. How they come out of their situation will tell the strength and health of the program. Daviess County will likely be out for blood after missing finals last year due to a rogue judge, who couldn't tell that the reason for their sound was because the MCs mic was left on in the box, so they had reverb through the stadium sound system. In 3A there's Russell County that I think gets overlooked the majority of the time because they missed finals in 2019. They're still a traditionally strong program. I'm also interested in seeing how Garrard County can continue to grow now that they are basically guaranteed a finals appearance with Beechwood and Estill dropping to 2A. Speaking of... 2A will be interesting this year with the additions of Estill and Beechwood. Glasgow has some real competition this year. 1A is a tossup outside of the top 2 being Owensboro Catholic and Washington County.
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zappak
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Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 12:38:15 GMT -6
Two things: 1. What are people’s top ten KY bands (KMEA or not) 2. Since many small districts in KY are being merged into the larger county schools what is the possibility of KY being a more competitive state in the next 10-15 years. This is really prevalent in northern Kentucky with districts like Newport, Covington, Dayton and Bellevue. 1. My top 10, based on videos I've seen, are... - Lafayette
- Madison Central
- Larry A. Ryle
- Murray
- Harrison County
- Beechwood
- North Hardin
- Campbell County
- Christian County
- Daviess County
2. As for small districts merging into larger schools, I haven't heard anything outside of the Christian County and Hopksinville merger. Do you have any information on others?
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ccbop
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Post by ccbop on Aug 24, 2023 12:51:15 GMT -6
2. As for small districts merging into larger schools, I haven't heard anything outside of the Christian County and Hopksinville merger. Do you have any information on others? My parents work in education so I constantly hear a bunch of talk about what schools are most likely to combine next in northern Kentucky.
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zappak
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Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 13:31:07 GMT -6
2. As for small districts merging into larger schools, I haven't heard anything outside of the Christian County and Hopksinville merger. Do you have any information on others? My parents work in education so I constantly hear a bunch of talk about what schools are most likely to combine next in northern Kentucky. Do you know who? If you can't say publicly, feel free to message me. I'm highly interested in this. I know that Harrison County will be combining all 4 of their elementary schools in the next couple of years and they're building a new high school, which will shift the middle school to the current high school and allowing the new elementary school to take over the current middle school. Of course, everyone knows about the Christian and Hopkinsville merger. And there's been talk of a Madison Northern for the last 20 years or better, but all that's come out of it is Boonesboro Elementary. I have family at the state board of education level, which is how I've gotten most of this information, but I haven't heard anything about the NKY mergers.
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Post by aiden on Aug 24, 2023 14:07:09 GMT -6
My parents work in education so I constantly hear a bunch of talk about what schools are most likely to combine next in northern Kentucky. Do you know who? If you can't say publicly, feel free to message me. I'm highly interested in this. I know that Harrison County will be combining all 4 of their elementary schools in the next couple of years and they're building a new high school, which will shift the middle school to the current high school and allowing the new elementary school to take over the current middle school. Of course, everyone knows about the Christian and Hopkinsville merger. And there's been talk of a Madison Northern for the last 20 years or better, but all that's come out of it is Boonesboro Elementary. I have family at the state board of education level, which is how I've gotten most of this information, but I haven't heard anything about the NKY mergers. there was a school district in PA that combined all their elementary schools into one
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zappak
Senior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 14:29:25 GMT -6
Do you know who? If you can't say publicly, feel free to message me. I'm highly interested in this. I know that Harrison County will be combining all 4 of their elementary schools in the next couple of years and they're building a new high school, which will shift the middle school to the current high school and allowing the new elementary school to take over the current middle school. Of course, everyone knows about the Christian and Hopkinsville merger. And there's been talk of a Madison Northern for the last 20 years or better, but all that's come out of it is Boonesboro Elementary. I have family at the state board of education level, which is how I've gotten most of this information, but I haven't heard anything about the NKY mergers. there was a school district in PA that combined all their elementary schools into one The Harrison County school system is a small one. There's only roughly 800 kids in the high school for grades 9th through 12th. They're always just a few above the 1A line in BOA. They've had 4 elementary schools since the 1960s, so apparently it's time to merge them into one school to avoid the $35 million renovations that is needed to bring 3 of the schools up to code. One was renovated just a few years ago from what I'm told, so it really does make sense to just combine them into a larger school.
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Post by aiden on Aug 24, 2023 15:21:23 GMT -6
I honestly wonder how Mayfield HS is doing
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zappak
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 15:36:33 GMT -6
I honestly wonder how Mayfield HS is doing From what I've heard they're doing pretty well. Looking towards another state finals appearance, for sure.
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Post by philodemus on Aug 24, 2023 17:15:47 GMT -6
I honestly wonder how Mayfield HS is doing From what I've heard they're doing pretty well. Looking towards another state finals appearance, for sure. Mayfield always impresses, kids play well and move well. I really thought they had a shot at their first title last year, but it wasn't in the cards. Would have been a great boon for a community that could use one. They are definitely a top contender for another finals appearance in 1A. Their director, one of the really nice dudes in the Kentucky band world, is nearing retirement in the next few years and I'm sure he'd love to bring home a Governor's Cup before he does.
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Post by aiden on Aug 24, 2023 18:51:12 GMT -6
Mayfield did well in 2022 even though most of the downtown area of the city was destroyed by an EF-4 tornado in late 20221
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zappak
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Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Aug 24, 2023 19:59:15 GMT -6
From what I've heard they're doing pretty well. Looking towards another state finals appearance, for sure. Mayfield always impresses, kids play well and move well. I really thought they had a shot at their first title last year, but it wasn't in the cards. Would have been a great boon for a community that could use one. They are definitely a top contender for another finals appearance in 1A. Their director, one of the really nice dudes in the Kentucky band world, is nearing retirement in the next few years and I'm sure he'd love to bring home a Governor's Cup before he does. My pics for the top 3 this year in 1A are Mayfield, Owensboro Catholic, and Washington County. It could go to either of the 3 in my opinion. Nicholas will likely be a force in the class this year as well. I don't think they should have missed out on finals last year, and those kids are going to be coming for blood.
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Post by philodemus on Sept 3, 2023 16:25:16 GMT -6
So, over on the kymarching message board there's an interesting conversation happening about Kentucky's longest lasting band controversy: classification. Of course, when I say interesting on that board, what I mean is that a few folks are saying interesting things while being shouted at by a handful of obnoxious folks with very little of interest to say... so why not move this interesting conversation to a more civil environment?
So, question: how well do we feel the hybrid classification system has worked out for Kentucky so far?
I was originally opposed, but to me it seems a qualified success at this point.
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ccbop
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Posts: 63
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Post by ccbop on Sept 3, 2023 17:42:59 GMT -6
So, over on the kymarching message board there's an interesting conversation happening about Kentucky's longest lasting band controversy: classification. Of course, when I say interesting on that board, what I mean is that a few folks are saying interesting things while being shouted at by a handful of obnoxious folks with very little of interest to say... so why not move this interesting conversation to a more civil environment? So, question: how well do we feel the hybrid classification system has worked out for Kentucky so far? I was originally opposed, but to me it seems a qualified success at this point. Being from KY i think it works for the state. Many if not all comps in the state that aren’t BOA don’t have any giant bands in it that would need a higher classification from another system. As long as the bands are judged on performance ability and not size that’s all that matters.
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Post by statechamp1239 on Sept 3, 2023 18:15:50 GMT -6
Does KMEA classify bands on school size and the size of the band?
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zappak
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Post by zappak on Sept 3, 2023 18:42:04 GMT -6
Does KMEA classify bands on school size and the size of the band? Yeah, it's a combination of both. This is the rundown...and it's a mess, and confusing. They get the enrollment numbers for the last two school years from KHSAA and average them out. Then they separate them into 5 even classes. Then they take the submitted musician numbers (guard and drum majors are excluded unless they play an instrument at some point during the show), and they determine where the cut off for each class will be. This is random every year, and part of what makes this so confusing. Each band gets points for their school size class and band size class. We'll use Murray for example. They are a 1A school size with 500ish enrolled, but they have a 5A musician size (because 5A bands are smaller in Kentucky than other places). This gives Murray 6 points. Class 1A - 2 to 3 points. Class 2A - 4 to 5 points. Class 3A - 6 to 7 points. Class 4A - 8 to 9 points. Class 5A - 10 points. Part of the downfall of this class system is that nobody can move up to 5A unless they are deemed a 5A school size and 5A band size. This all depends on the size of programs under them. This is why 5A only has 13 bands in total.
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zappak
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Post by zappak on Sept 3, 2023 18:44:35 GMT -6
So, over on the kymarching message board there's an interesting conversation happening about Kentucky's longest lasting band controversy: classification. Of course, when I say interesting on that board, what I mean is that a few folks are saying interesting things while being shouted at by a handful of obnoxious folks with very little of interest to say... so why not move this interesting conversation to a more civil environment? So, question: how well do we feel the hybrid classification system has worked out for Kentucky so far? I was originally opposed, but to me it seems a qualified success at this point. Who are you deeming obnoxious on KMN? Moderator Note: This question should not be answered here. If you wish to have such a conversation, please do so via private messages.
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Post by philodemus on Sept 4, 2023 7:34:44 GMT -6
Hey, guys, didn't mean to derail the conversation with a flippant comment about another board... I'm definitely not naming names, and probably shouldn't have made the snarky aside in the first place. My bad.
So, like I said above, my take on the hybrid system is evolving. I was very much a 'school-size' purist, and I still am in a 'school size vs. band size' argument. However, it looks like the hybrid system may actually be accomplishing its goals, and my worst fears about it aren't really coming true. The 'small band, big school' folks have a more reasonable competitive environment to participate in, and the 'small band, small school' folks do as well. My fear was, of course, for the 'big band, small school' folks who this system seemed to punish for their success by throwing them into larger classes, but... let's be honest, neither Murray nor Beechwood has had any trouble holding their own in 3A/2A. Both of them would seem to have strong shots at another Governor's Cup this fall in their respective classes.
So, I don't know... I still hate the political shenanigans that are rumored to have gone on behind the scenes to make this happen, but so far at least the results haven't really been bad, exactly, and might even be helping the activity in our state.
The complaint about 5A being so small and having a shorter road to State Finals is legitimate, but... I guess it just doesn't bother me? To me, that feels like a reasonable reward for swimming in those shark infested waters.
My remaining qualm is looking to the future... As I noted, the groups that were already 'big band, small school' are basically flourishing, but does this system encourage anyone else to join that elite club? If I'm a 'small band, small school' and we start to grow due our new success... do I like that? Or do I try, even subconsciously, to stay in 1A/2A? 10 years ago Murray was pretty small, but their success in the old 1A helped them grow and encouraged them to do so. Does this new system provide the same incentives for, say, Cumberland County? [random example, just thinking of a current successful 1A].
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Post by kalacia on Sept 4, 2023 8:29:26 GMT -6
A few Kentucky contests this weekend with the Paul Laurence Dunbar Invitational fielding the most competitive lineup A Lee County 1:00 AA Nelson County 1:15 AAA Taylor County 1:30 AAA Mercer County 1:45 Break AAAA Anderson County 2:15 AAAA Woodford County 2:30 AAAA Harrison County 2:45 AAAA Tates Creek 3:00 Break AAAAA Madison Central 3:30 AAAAA Lafayette 3:45 AAAAA Eastern 4:00 AAAAA Henry Clay 4:15 Exhibition Bryan Station 4:30 Preliminary Awards 4:40 FINALS Finalist #1 6:30 Finalist #2 6:45 Finalist #3 7:00 Finalist #4 7:15 Finalist #5 7:30 Finalist #6 7:45 Break Finalist #7 8:15 Finalist #8 8:30 Finalist #9 8:45 Finalist #10 9:00 Finalist #11 9:15 Finalist #12 9:30 Host Paul Laurence Dunbar 9:45 Final Awards 10:00
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zappak
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Posts: 73
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Post by zappak on Sept 4, 2023 16:11:11 GMT -6
Hey, guys, didn't mean to derail the conversation with a flippant comment about another board... I'm definitely not naming names, and probably shouldn't have made the snarky aside in the first place. My bad. So, like I said above, my take on the hybrid system is evolving. I was very much a 'school-size' purist, and I still am in a 'school size vs. band size' argument. However, it looks like the hybrid system may actually be accomplishing its goals, and my worst fears about it aren't really coming true. The 'small band, big school' folks have a more reasonable competitive environment to participate in, and the 'small band, small school' folks do as well. My fear was, of course, for the 'big band, small school' folks who this system seemed to punish for their success by throwing them into larger classes, but... let's be honest, neither Murray nor Beechwood has had any trouble holding their own in 3A/2A. Both of them would seem to have strong shots at another Governor's Cup this fall in their respective classes. So, I don't know... I still hate the political shenanigans that are rumored to have gone on behind the scenes to make this happen, but so far at least the results haven't really been bad, exactly, and might even be helping the activity in our state. The complaint about 5A being so small and having a shorter road to State Finals is legitimate, but... I guess it just doesn't bother me? To me, that feels like a reasonable reward for swimming in those shark infested waters. My remaining qualm is looking to the future... As I noted, the groups that were already 'big band, small school' are basically flourishing, but does this system encourage anyone else to join that elite club? If I'm a 'small band, small school' and we start to grow due our new success... do I like that? Or do I try, even subconsciously, to stay in 1A/2A? 10 years ago Murray was pretty small, but their success in the old 1A helped them grow and encouraged them to do so. Does this new system provide the same incentives for, say, Cumberland County? [random example, just thinking of a current successful 1A]. It doesn't provide the incentives for growth, and it's starting to show this year. Estill County dropping to 2A (4 to 5 total points in the system) after being a 4A size band the last few competitive seasons is telling in my opinion. That is a healthy program, so for them to fall a class after being so consistent in numbers is worrisome. The issues that KMEA had prior to the school size system are starting to show themselves. The only difference is that a 5A school cannot drop to 1A like they were able to in the past (4A to 1A) because of the point system. If directors are cutting numbers or holding auditions (some have been holding auditions for quite a few seasons now) a band of 30 musicians in 2A or 3A, using the absolute best of the best a 4A/5A school has to offer could theoretically kill the competition in the lower classes with the right tools. We've seen schools with 20 musicians use amplification to their advantage to take down bands 5 times their size. We've also had giant slayers in our history before, and even recent history, like Hazard who had 28 kids total beating out Williamstown and Murray who were 3 times their size in 2012 (they also beat Beechwood in 3 of the 6 captions), and Williamstown in 2014 who beat Lafayette first weekend out. It can be done. And this isn't to say that Estill is the only one, they're just the biggest example I have found so far. South Laurel also dropped down a class this year, several historically larger programs are much smaller, and in my opinion we're past Covid being to blame. Basically, there is no incentive for growth, and the problems from the band size era are already starting to show themselves after just 3 seasons of the hybrid system; it just won't be as drastic as having 90 bands in 1A like prior to 2005. School size didn't help everyone, but it did help the majority. We saw several programs grow, and programs were grouped with other schools that have somewhat of the same resources and enrollment to pull from. We're always going to have programs leave the circuit, it happened prior to school size as well (North Hardin left in the early 2000s). We can't please everyone, but I think in order to encourage growth in this state school size is the best bet.
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Post by oldkyband on Sept 4, 2023 20:22:01 GMT -6
Estill County has never been close to being a 4A band in size. They were barely a 3A band last season and only moved to 3A in 2019 after several years as 2A. There is movement from one class to another every season. This year 8 programs went down a class and 10 programs went up a class. Last year there were 11 programs that went up a class and 7 programs that went down a class.
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zappak
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Post by zappak on Sept 5, 2023 11:27:04 GMT -6
Estill County has never been close to being a 4A band in size. They were barely a 3A band last season and only moved to 3A in 2019 after several years as 2A. There is movement from one class to another every season. This year 8 programs went down a class and 10 programs went up a class. Last year there were 11 programs that went up a class and 7 programs that went down a class. Estill County 2022 - 54 musicians (Class 3A) Anderson County 2022 - 53 musicians (Class 4A) Estill County 2021 - 52 musicians (Class 3A) Anderson County 2021 - 49 musicians (Class 4A) Estill County 2019 - 61 musicians (Class 3A) Bullitt East 2019 - 62 musicians (Class 4A) You were saying? Estill has been a 2A size school with a 4A size band, which is what put them in 3A to begin with. 2 points for school size + 4 points for band size = 6 points (Class 3A - 6 to 7 points) Just because a school moved up a class doesn't mean that they grew any. In this system a band could dwindle in size and move a band up a class because they're now smaller than the ones that were previously smaller. Movement doesn't always equal growth.
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Post by cybrunette on Sept 5, 2023 12:23:27 GMT -6
Estill County has never been close to being a 4A band in size. They were barely a 3A band last season and only moved to 3A in 2019 after several years as 2A. There is movement from one class to another every season. This year 8 programs went down a class and 10 programs went up a class. Last year there were 11 programs that went up a class and 7 programs that went down a class. Estill County 2022 - 54 musicians (Class 3A) Anderson County 2022 - 53 musicians (Class 4A) Estill County 2021 - 52 musicians (Class 3A) Anderson County 2021 - 49 musicians (Class 4A) Estill County 2019 - 61 musicians (Class 3A) Bullitt East 2019 - 62 musicians (Class 4A) You were saying? Estill has been a 2A size school with a 4A size band, which is what put them in 3A to begin with. 2 points for school size + 4 points for band size = 6 points (Class 3A - 6 to 7 points) Just because a school moved up a class doesn't mean that they grew any. In this system a band could dwindle in size and move a band up a class because they're now smaller than the ones that were previously smaller. Movement doesn't always equal growth. What I'm about to say might be a little spicy for discussion, but just seeing the hard numbers on this is confusing. To me, an outsider, this just seems as if the board members who created this system wanted to manifest an opportunity for their own programs or the ones they supported to win / succeed which since then has been spiraling out of control?
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