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Post by weller22 on Nov 13, 2022 0:33:51 GMT -6
Yep. Personally (really just preference as all were incredible in different ways) I had BA 1st, Avon 2nd, and Carmel 3rd, but it's silly to compare scores across panels. That's like comparing scores at 2 different events on the same weekend.
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Post by paddy on Nov 13, 2022 0:36:14 GMT -6
Panel 1 seemed to run a bit hot.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 13, 2022 0:36:43 GMT -6
No big difference between Lakota East and West, 27th and 28th respectively. Don't get it, lost interest during East performance, staid engaged during West's. What an I missing? While I also thought they were fairly close, I had West in the lead, but in my notes, I wrote that East's show by contrast to West's was more orchestral and less powerful. Given the Semifinals judges are the group who put William Mason's more delicate show in second place over Avon and Broken Arrow, it could just be that their tastes favored the kind of show East presented. I note that in Prelims, where East and West were both on Panel 1, albeit 22 hours apart, West had a small edge: 14th (85.850) vs. 15th (84.375) out of 49 bands on the panel (and 25th vs. 26th overall).
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Post by mww83 on Nov 13, 2022 0:40:11 GMT -6
The way people talk about Carmel, you’d think they had won every year for the last 30 years. They have 6 championship notches in their belt. They are good. Really good. And very consistent (much like Avon). Their directors have a formula that works and the kids execute at high levels. I understand not personally liking their show but to insinuate that they aren’t deserving of their wins…is wild. Just because their style or song selections aren’t to your liking, doesn’t mean they aren’t to many others, including the judges. Congrats Carmel on another big win! Well deserved! 🏆
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 13, 2022 0:41:19 GMT -6
Me watching Prelims: "The top three are 1. Carmel, 2. Avon, 3. Broken Arrow." Judges, unbeknownst to me: "Nope."
Me watching Semis: "The top three again are 1. Carmel, 2. Avon, 3. Broken Arrow." Judges, as per the announced awards: "Nope."
Me, only able to watch all of Carmel, half of Broken Arrow, and none of Avon in Finals: "Who knows?" Judges: "The top three are 1. Carmel, 2. Avon, 3. Broken Arrow."
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0000
Senior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by 0000 on Nov 13, 2022 0:42:19 GMT -6
No big difference between Lakota East and West, 27th and 28th respectively. They should just do a super saiyan fusion dance at this point imo
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Post by doublegeez on Nov 13, 2022 0:45:11 GMT -6
No big difference between Lakota East and West, 27th and 28th respectively. They should just do a super saiyan fusion dance at this point imo That’d be hype asf Super GE if it happens on the field
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 13, 2022 0:48:05 GMT -6
Yeah it really pains me to see. I’d like to do my own personal research into these judges and am interested in their backgrounds At Carmel. I was actually talking with ilikeguard about this earlier, but it seems given the current implementation of the 2 panel system, they should do something similar for Grand Nats as they do for Super Regionals. The finals at Super Regionals with the 2 panel systems are a combination of the 2 panels. So why not have one combination of the panels for semifinals and then another of those panels for finals? I think that in theory, that would provide some more consistency in placements across the weekend. Would it be a total fix? Of course not, but it feels like the most ideal solution given everything. This was always how it was done when Thursday and Friday were the separate panels. The alternating blocks by judging panel didn't change that right away.
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Post by yayband914 on Nov 13, 2022 0:48:55 GMT -6
Prelims results/semis cut-offs were interesting. Poor Miamisburg, 31st for the second year in a row. If you were on Panel 2, you had it ROUGH.
Div 1 ratings for 62 out of 99 bands (translation: stacked). Only around 7.825 points between 30th and 62nd place (translation: stacked).
28. Goshen H.S., IN - 83.700 29. Plymouth Canton E.P., MI - 83.400 30. Grain Valley H.S., MO - 82.875 ———— 31. Campbell County H.S., KY - 82.500 31. Miamisburg H.S., OH - 82.500 33. Cleveland H.S., NC - 82.400 34. Deer Creek H.S., OK - 81.725 35. Panther Creek H.S., NC - 81.700 36. Legacy H.S., CO - 81.675 37. Archbishop Alter H.S., OH - 81.500 38. Marian Catholic H.S., IL - 80.800 39. Center Grove H.S., IN - 80.500 40. Milford H.S., OH - 80.450 41. Lawrence Township, IN - 80.350 42. Anderson County H.S., KY - 79.850 42. Reeths-Puffer H.S., MI - 79.850 44. Windermere H.S., FL - 79.750 45. Beechwood H.S., KY - 79.550 46. Bourbon County H.S., KY - 79.450 47. Greenfield-Central H.S., IN - 78.200 48. Catawba Ridge H.S., SC - 77.950 49. Beechwood H.S., KY - 79.550 50. DeSoto Central H.S., MS - 77.825 51. DeWitt H.S., MI - 77.450 52. North Hardin H.S., KY - 77.400 53. Ravenwood H.S., TN - 76.475 54. Greendale H.S., WI - 76.375 55. Worthington Kilbourne H.S., OH - 76.175 56. Lake Hamilton H.S., AR - 75.600 57. Bassett H.S., VA - 75.500 57. Hardin Valley Academy, TN - 75.500 59. Columbus Schools, IN - 75.375 60. Summit H.S., TN - 75.200 61. Green Level H.S., NC - 75.150 62. Forest Hills Schools, OH - 75.050 63. Murray H.S., KY - 73.800 64. Bellbrook H.S., OH - 73.500 65. Finneytown H.S., OH - 73.250
(Without looking at the other thread and from the top of my head, I also correctly predicted Legacy in 36th, Marian Catholic in 38th and Hendrickson in 16th. Just call me Teresa Caputo.)
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 13, 2022 0:50:20 GMT -6
After thinking it through, I can say, with conviction, that Carmel 100% earned this title and out of all their championship winning shows since 2016 this one was probably my favorite. That being said my overall favorite Carmel show is probably last years. The silent flag feature from their guard still sends chills down my spine whenever I go back and watch it. Congratulations Carmel on Championship #6! The rumored Carmel vs Hebron showdown next year is going to be fun. And odds are very good that neither wins the Eagle. Too many great bands to assume it's just the two in contention.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 13, 2022 0:56:54 GMT -6
Please don’t bring logic and reason into this… Sorry - I’ve been up for almost 24 hours at this point and I wasn’t thinking. It won’t happen again….. Your favorite band's first GN appearance and their performance therein probably hyped you up a bit, too.
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Post by bigtrombone on Nov 13, 2022 0:59:03 GMT -6
The way people talk about Carmel, you’d think they had won every year for the last 30 years. They have 6 championship notches in their belt. They are good. Really good. And very consistent (much like Avon). Their directors have a formula that works and the kids execute at high levels. I understand not personally liking their show but to insinuate that they aren’t deserving of their wins…is wild. Just because their style or song selections aren’t to your liking, doesn’t mean they aren’t to many others, including the judges. Congrats Carmel on another big win! Well deserved! 🏆 The way people talk about Carmel reminds of me the way people talk about a certain 20-time Drum Corps Champion.
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Post by 70sguardchick on Nov 13, 2022 1:14:55 GMT -6
Sorry - I’ve been up for almost 24 hours at this point and I wasn’t thinking. It won’t happen again….. Your favorite band's first GN appearance and their performance therein probably hyped you up a bit, too. Ya think? LOL
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Post by dallasmavericks on Nov 13, 2022 1:30:25 GMT -6
Congratulations not only to Carmel but all of the finalist bands and bands that performed throughout this amazing three day event. Each kid that took that field worked their butts off all summer and fall to put on an amazing final performance and they deserve the utmost praise for their dedication and hard work. BOA 2022 has been an amazing season and I’m already looking forward to next year.
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Post by bongoboy on Nov 13, 2022 5:15:50 GMT -6
First thing. Congrats to Carmel!
2nd, to all of those proposing a new location, I don’t think you realize what a tall order that is. There might be other great venues. But Indy is literally the sweet spot. Centrally located for a <checks notes> National competition. Amazing facility to perform in. And thousands of rooms and restaurants you can walk to.
Good for Carmel, Avon, and all of the other Indiana bands for taking advantage of getting to perform and observe the best bands across the country every year. What has that gotten them? Not even a quarter of the championships between Indiana bands.
I get it that Carmel and Avon, Fishers, etc. get the advantage of seeing the best play every year. That only makes beating them even sweeter when it happens!
Don’t dog the bands with the home court advantage. Instead, work your butt off, show up, and win! Lots of non-Indiana bands across the country have done that in Hoosier state. It ain’t easy, but it makes the victory even that much greater!
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Post by cornet on Nov 13, 2022 5:48:36 GMT -6
Looks to me like Panel 2 was systematically scored tougher. I think Catawba got a bit of a raw deal. It's hard to believe they were beaten by Panther Creek (beat them by ten at Winston and frankly doesn't pass the eye test). 38th the Marian? Come on.
I guess it's just band in the end...
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glmain
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by glmain on Nov 13, 2022 6:32:11 GMT -6
Great show. We can have our issues with certain aspects of the judging, but two things are for certain: the kids marched and played amazingly well, and Box 5 really dropped the ball. Speaking of, anyone have access to that video we're supposedly promised? I got the message that I'm supposed to get one, but nothing yet.
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Post by es203 on Nov 13, 2022 7:12:53 GMT -6
Looks to me like Panel 2 was systematically scored tougher. I think Catawba got a bit of a raw deal. It's hard to believe they were beaten by Panther Creek (beat them by ten at Winston and frankly doesn't pass the eye test). 38th the Marian? Come on. I guess it's just band in the end... I’m a firm believer that the judges absolutely make mistakes, and them not having CR in semis is a big one.
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Post by trumpet300 on Nov 13, 2022 7:29:10 GMT -6
Great show. We can have our issues with certain aspects of the judging, but two things are for certain: the kids marched and played amazingly well, and Box 5 really dropped the ball. Speaking of, anyone have access to that video we're supposedly promised? I got the message that I'm supposed to get one, but nothing yet. Where'd you receive this message?
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Post by cornet on Nov 13, 2022 7:33:13 GMT -6
Looks to me like Panel 2 was systematically scored tougher. I think Catawba got a bit of a raw deal. It's hard to believe they were beaten by Panther Creek (beat them by ten at Winston and frankly doesn't pass the eye test). 38th the Marian? Come on. I guess it's just band in the end... I’m a firm believer that the judges absolutely make mistakes, and them not having CR in semis is a big one. It feels crazy to say for a band that finished 48th but if they played between Cleveland and PC they make semis. I crazily believe that. Winston deltas. In score: Cleveland plus 1 CR -5 Green Level 0 Panther Creek plus 9. Yikes.
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 13, 2022 7:38:18 GMT -6
Wish I could have saw Avon and Carmel last night so I could have seen first hand the visual. Stream crapped out in Broken Arrow’s closer.
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Post by dbalash on Nov 13, 2022 7:40:37 GMT -6
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Post by gjramsey on Nov 13, 2022 7:45:33 GMT -6
I w I’m a firm believer that the judges absolutely make mistakes, and them not having CR in semis is a big one. It feels crazy to say for a band that finished 48th but if they played between Cleveland and PC they make semis. I crazily believe that. Winston deltas. In score: Cleveland plus 1 CR -5 Green Level 0 Panther Creek plus 9. Yikes. PC did not have a complete show at Winston where all the other did. Except for CR, seeing the others multiple times, PC grew a bunch over the last several weeks where Cleveland and GL seemed about the same. GL show at prelims was very rough. I was surprised to see CR that low from prelims, but, to me, the show really felt exactly the same as it was in Winston
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 8:02:18 GMT -6
Honestly I'd be down to move Nats to SA at this point if it brought greater consistency between prelims - semis - finals. The competitiveness this year was crazy, but 15 place difference between prelims to finals is just silly and it signals a lack of cohesion and certainty from judges I disagree. There were a ton of bands that were very similar in performance level this year. In a situation like this, a subtle performance change that was not as strong could really cause a big placement jump and vice versa. I am sure in semi finals there were some bands that rose to the occasion and a few others where the nerves may have gotten them a bit. San Antonio only had a prelims and finals, no semis. In this day and age, bands at the very top seem to be much more consistent from show to show, much like DCI. This includes all the bands that made San Antonio finals. At Grand Nationals this year, the bands near the top remained near the top in Prelims, Semis and Finals.
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Post by It's Just Band on Nov 13, 2022 8:38:44 GMT -6
Grand Nationals can not be moved from year to year. It would be a logistical nightmare. BOA realized this in the 1980s as the size of Grand Nationals doubled over the course of the decade. The Pontiac Silverdome was a nice stadium but that was about it. It was determined in 1989 that Indy was the best choice. There was ample room for other activities and warm up in the convention center. Also lots of hotels and restaurants within walking distance. I know it gives Indiana bands an advantage, but I don't know of any other place that would work as well. Also Indy is a little more centrally located in terms of the population center of the US. Preach! lol
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Post by es203 on Nov 13, 2022 8:39:58 GMT -6
Wasn’t able to comment during finals last night because my phone died, but I had seats on the 50 about 10 rows up. I was very surprised with Hendrickson, having not seen them all year. That was a really really cool show with some unbelievably good soloists and lots of really great effects, I personally had them in 7th. Tarpon was fantastic, I thought they had the show design to medal. Just wasn’t clean enough, especially visually (I haven’t checked finals recaps yet so idk if that’s what the judges thought.) The beatboxing and the solos and the singing and the crazy colors and the paint cans with past show names on them (ready player one red lol) all just fit together so well. Watched Avon and BA back to back in semis, glad I got to see them back to back in finals too. The two dark shows right next to each other. BA had such an energetic run compared to semis, they were ON. That moment with the brass off in the right corner playing into the back curtain and then turning around and hitting us with a big wall of sound (I think it was the ballad?) was so awesome. I could hear some of the Edge of Eternity influence throughout the show, this year just didn’t quite have the design (which is pretty difficult when it’s being compared to one of the greatest shows in GN history.) They were hungry after what happened in semis and they brought the intensity. Avon ending Old Hundredth on a funky minor chord really set the tone for the rest of this show. They’re so precise and so focused in everything they do, and they brought the house down. Probably the crowd favorite of the night. Unfortunately, them going earlier in the night definitely hurt my perception of how they placed, I had them well below WM and Carmel.
Before William Mason started their show, there was a weird energy in the crowd. It was the kind of energy when you know something big might happen. I really thought they had the best run they’ve had, and maybe a small chance at winning. This show also had some Edge of Eternity influence (maybe I’m just seeing it in everything now idk.) They clearly learned their lesson from last year with the uniforms, because DANG did the yellow and white pop against the field. Their woodwinds were just as good as always (I will argue that they’re one of the best woodwind sections in the country on any year) and the soloists were ON it. I will say it seems like the brass was holding back some power, and I’ve heard that about them a few times this year. Whatever they were doing, they sounded very very good. There were a few moments with some heavy multiple tonguing in the brass and it was very clean. This was just a beautiful show all throughout.
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Post by es203 on Nov 13, 2022 8:45:53 GMT -6
I’m gonna start with Carmel by talking about their individual visual technique. They have a VERY straight leg marching technique that looks so clean, and everyone is 100% in on it. My opinion is that it looks way more precise and way smoother than basically anyone in the country, but again just an opinion. This show had everything you think of when you think about Carmel. I love when people try to claim that Carmel has “easy” shows. Like, are you even watching? The demand is in the constant tempo changes, speeding up and slowing down. The spread across the entire field. Even then, they still have “traditional” demand. The crazy kinetic noise style trumpet feature in the closer comes to mind. Double tonguing and playing fast runs is hard, sure. But getting 120 brass players to play perfectly in sync while spread across an entire football field is ridiculous. Arguably the best drum corps hornline of all time in Crown 2012 struggled with it, you can hear the tearing during the ballad. And the thing is, Carmel does this EVERY YEAR. And they execute it so well every year, and people still think they’re paying the judges or some BS lol. ANYWAYS, the show. I loved so much about it. The arrangement of the Barber symphony was just so different. I feel like every time we’ve heard someone play it, it sounds exactly like Avon 2009. Props to Carmel for making it feel new and refreshed. The trombone feature (in place of the high brass feature yayyy) was fantastic. They finally ended a show on a bright high voiced chord instead of a really dark low voiced chord like they usually do. I’m not complaining, it was loud. There’s times you can tell a band is clearly ahead of the pack, and this was one of them. I remember thinking “yeah there’s no way that doesn’t win.” They’re just so clean in everything they do. Congrats to Carmel on a well deserved #6.
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stix
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by stix on Nov 13, 2022 8:56:57 GMT -6
This is way too true. Southlake-Carroll jumped from 22nd to 7th place. How do you justify a 15 jump in placement over 2 days? Spoiler: you can't I think you can... the goal of these different panels of judges is completely different. Prelims judges want to get the top 30 right, Semi judges want to get the top 12 right, Finals judges are really the only ones whose goal is to detail out the placements to the right order. Its a lot easier to judge the placement order of 12 bands than it is to get that same order with 100 bands. This was stated by a judge yesterday during an interview on Box5. He said during the prelims round at GN we are not worried about placement, we are focusing an making sure the correct bands are selected to advance to the next round.
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Post by paddy on Nov 13, 2022 9:04:31 GMT -6
I think you can... the goal of these different panels of judges is completely different. Prelims judges want to get the top 30 right, Semi judges want to get the top 12 right, Finals judges are really the only ones whose goal is to detail out the placements to the right order. Its a lot easier to judge the placement order of 12 bands than it is to get that same order with 100 bands. This was stated by a judge yesterday during an interview on Box5. He said during the prelims round at GN we are not worried about placement, we are focusing an making sure the correct bands are selected to advance to the next round. I’m not 100% sure that happened given the disparity between panels. He also said .1 difference is essentially the same score. Except if all 7 judges are off the same direction that is .7 difference in total and that really changes things at the semis break. It also sounded like he said something about .3 really being the point where things separate so that’s a wide margin of error.
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 13, 2022 9:17:12 GMT -6
Got to watch Carmel. Yup they’re the champ. Sounded amazing. Having an interesting arrangement of no1 helped. Like another member said, I haven’t heard No1 arranged that differently from the traditional score and I think that helped my opinion on that. Visual demand wasn’t the peak BUT they executed what they were doing to near perfection so I get it.
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