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Post by bigtrombone on Nov 13, 2022 9:17:56 GMT -6
So northbanddad if you were curious to know how The Rose compared to Rosemount's other BOA outings, Rosemount's prelims score is the 2nd highest score they've ever received at a BOA competition. The Top 10 Scores for those interested: 1. 2016 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 87.90, 3rd out of 64 ( Love at First Bite) 2. 2022 Grand National Prelims - 87.225, 18th out of 99 ( The Rose) 3. 2016 St. Louis Super Regional Finals - 87.10, 7th out of 14 ( Love at First Bite) 4. 2021 Grand National Prelims - 85.25, 26th out of 99 ( Out of the Shadows) 5. 2014 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 85.20, 4th out of 64 ( The Queen) 6. 2022 Grand National Semifinals - 84.95, 24th out of 34 ( The Rose) 7. 2013 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 84.70, 4th out of 64 ( A Rose) 8. 2017 Indianapolis Super Regional Prelims - 84.425, 8th out of 68 ( The Pack) 9. 2015 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 83.95, 5th out of 63 ( Pedal to the Medal) 10. 2007 St. Louis Super Regional Finals - 83.85, 3rd out of 14 ( Move or Be Moved)
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Post by verysaxy on Nov 13, 2022 9:19:10 GMT -6
Well, time for my list of shockers from this week:
PRELIMS: • BA in first… if there was any round Carmel should’ve won, it’s prelims • Carroll and Byrnes so low — glad to see they jumped in semis • Still confused if I watched the same PCEP as the judges, but okay! • Grain Valley nearly missing semis, only in by .330… insane • Campbell County! CAMPBELL COUNTY! We owe whoever it was giving them the hype after Obetz an apology. Tied Miamisburg for 31st and bested EVERY other KY band! I wonder how this would’ve done at KMEA… • Panther Creek in 35th is quite high to say the least. I’ll leave it at that. Same thing for Milford in 40th, Reeths-Puffer in 42nd, and South Oldham in 49th. • On the contrary, 38th, 41st, 48th, 52nd, 59th, and 63rd are horribly low placements for Marian, MPLT, Catawba Ridge, North Hardin, Columbus, and Murray, respectively. Yet again, I’ll leave it at that but do with the last two bullet points what you will. • Overall some questionable placements, but it seemed more of a panel problem than a performance problem, which is an easy fix
SEMIS: • Congrats again Mason on 2nd! • Poor American Fork :/ it’s quite easy for me to say AF deserved to be in over Hendrickson. Sorry, not sorry. • Looking at recaps, looks like MGE is what killed AF. Yet again, we’re the judges watching the same bands as us? • Rosemount in 24th was far from what I was expecting, but for some reason I’m not surprised. Brass needs some work for sure.
FINALS: • Great job Carmel! The more I think about their performance last night, the more I start to agree with the judges. Stunning! • I’m sorry Avon — maybe one day it’ll happen. I truly don’t know what else they need to do to win, but eventually it’ll be their year. • Kudos to Castle! I figured Menlo Park would be in before The Count, but that just goes to show how WIDE OPEN finals was this year! Great job out of Castle and ALL bands who performed this week.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2022 9:26:15 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion.
When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately.
I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets.
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Post by pitplayer19 on Nov 13, 2022 9:28:56 GMT -6
American Fork got 4th in Music individual in prelims 👀
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Post by das88 on Nov 13, 2022 9:30:15 GMT -6
Well, my blood pressure is back down after missing Broken Arrow, Avon, half of Tarpon Springs. I actually enjoyed the commentary from the BOX5 staff this year. I thought the lady did a great job this season. The one guy I would never invite to a party to be the life of the party. The other guy probably is the life of the party. But overall I think they did great!! 1. Going in I was hoping BA would take #5. I love Cartwright shows (I will get the that a little later). My only issue, which was pointed out in the forum a few times, is perhaps BA's uniforms blended in a little too much with the props. Maybe it was different watching the show live. We know BA will be back to contend for another title. They are similar to Carmel in that they are a super big high school with great directors, design teams, resources, and long standing tradition in music education. Kreke could retire and Carmel will still be Carmel. Davis was supposedly retiring. Which brings me to the next topic. 2. Major director changes. Traditionally, when a long time director or directors leave the program takes a hit for a couple of years. Sometimes they don't bounce back at all. Homestead really finished out strong. Hopefully they have some good numbers coming up through the program. Castle. You know I love this program and was pretty anxious about this season. Then when I learned they were 40-some percent freshmen I took another deep breath. Now I am like the Scottish "“Aye, nae bother.” Avon, especially after wining all three WGI Scholastic World titles, was not much of a concern and certainly wasn't. I really liked their show this year. 3. I didn't get on the Tarpon Springs "its not fair they are AA" b.s. earlier. I will just compare it to a real issue with high school sports. Small private schools loading up with Div 1 athletes. Most glaring in basketball and football. Volleyball some as well. So let's do what typically happens. Move them up a class and they win that class as well. So TS got 5th, behind 4 AAAA schools. Everyone is happy!! 4. Grand Nationals is not moving to a different location. The convention center and LOS was a planned thing. LOS was designed in part to host events like the DCI world championship and Grand Nationals. Indy host's A LOT of big events because of location. 5. Cartwright. I have only ever found one audio interview he has done. He talked specifically about total effect (which is interesting how he processes that) But he also talked about specifically paying attention (example was doing LD Bell and BA as the same time) creating differences in his shows. He also said you are going to see some of his elements mixed in his shows. Seems like a natural thing to me. This year we have BA, Mason. Two dramatically different shows from color, music, uniforms. DB. A very specific themed show. Brownsburg. More in line with BA, darker themed show. I actually did not know he did Prosper's show. Uniform design has really evolved. Who did Tarpon Springs show?
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Post by Allohak on Nov 13, 2022 9:30:44 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion. When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately. I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets. It's all about the commentary tapes they get
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Post by verysaxy on Nov 13, 2022 9:31:18 GMT -6
American Fork got 4th in Music individual in prelims 👀 and then solidly out of the top 12 in semis. It’s just not making sense.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 9:40:21 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion. When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately. I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets. I will echo this comment. A lot of bands who go for the experience and/or a chance to make Semi Finals get a lot out of the judging commentary. It really helps let the bands know what was working well and what areas they need to improve upon.
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Post by paddy on Nov 13, 2022 9:47:30 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion. When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately. I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets. (Cough) split the show/panels by classification (cough)
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2022 9:53:24 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion. When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately. I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets. (Cough) split the show/panels by classification (cough) I don’t hate this. I see no issue with bands competing next to the bands they’re most likely to have similar resources to (of course there are outliers, but there always will be). A school with less than 200 students should not have to go directly before Broken Arrow in prelims, imo. But there are always things we could change. Even if things were perfect!
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Post by paddy on Nov 13, 2022 9:55:40 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion. When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately. I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets. It's all about the commentary tapes they get I’ve heard them for a fringe semifinals band. Not terribly helpful. The judge interviewed on Box5 basically said the same thing. Tapes won’t give full insight into his scores because of the challenge it presents to score and comment.
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Post by iloveband on Nov 13, 2022 10:01:06 GMT -6
I think you can... the goal of these different panels of judges is completely different. Prelims judges want to get the top 30 right, Semi judges want to get the top 12 right, Finals judges are really the only ones whose goal is to detail out the placements to the right order. Its a lot easier to judge the placement order of 12 bands than it is to get that same order with 100 bands. This was stated by a judge yesterday during an interview on Box5. He said during the prelims round at GN we are not worried about placement, we are focusing an making sure the correct bands are selected to advance to the next round. It’s interesting that Byrnes, Carroll and Kiski that had such a jump in placement from prelims to semis all played Thursday. In fact, Byrnes and Carroll were the last two bands Thursday night. Maybe the judges grew tired? And all the bands that had a big drop in placements were from Friday prelims
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c
Junior Member
Posts: 22
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Post by c on Nov 13, 2022 10:03:45 GMT -6
I’m a big fan of Samuel Barber’s music. Makes me wonder how many times his Symphony #1 has been played at finals, let alone Adagio for Strings. From memory these groups all played Symphony #1: -Carmel 2022 -Vista Ridge 2021 -Avon 2009 -Lawrence Central 2002
I think it’s an exciting piece that can be enjoyed by the students, audience, and judges!
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Post by iloveband on Nov 13, 2022 10:07:12 GMT -6
I think you can... the goal of these different panels of judges is completely different. Prelims judges want to get the top 30 right, Semi judges want to get the top 12 right, Finals judges are really the only ones whose goal is to detail out the placements to the right order. Its a lot easier to judge the placement order of 12 bands than it is to get that same order with 100 bands. This was stated by a judge yesterday during an interview on Box5. He said during the prelims round at GN we are not worried about placement, we are focusing an making sure the correct bands are selected to advance to the next round. It’s interesting that Byrnes, Carroll and Kiski that had such a jump in placement from prelims to semis all played Thursday. In fact, Byrnes and Carroll were the last two bands Thursday night. Maybe the judges grew tired? And all the bands that had a big drop in placements were from Friday prelims
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stix
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by stix on Nov 13, 2022 10:08:58 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion. When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately. I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets. I completely agree with you. I feel like it’s another safety mechanism for them to say that it’s all about getting the correct groups selected and order does not matter in the early round. Much like the top and bottom split is a safety mechanism to ensure that there is no movement between top and bottom in finals. I understand it’s an incredible difficult task that is somewhat subjective, I wish there was a way to eliminate these mechanisms and have consistency in scoring. Without the same judges scoring the same captions in all rounds there will always be differences hence the “safety mechanisms”. I don’t envy this incredible difficult task the judges perform.
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Post by weller22 on Nov 13, 2022 10:09:44 GMT -6
Ok. Before I ask this, it comes with no bitterness or anger, just curiosity and a little bit of confusion. When we talk about prelims existing to get the best 22 bands in, and semis existing only to get the best 12 in, where does that leave the overwhelming MAJORITY of bands that come to GN for fair and helpful adjudication? If I shouldn’t pay attention to prelims scores because they’re “all nonsense past a point”, what does that do for band directors who have come to gain feedback for their band? Is the feedback nonsense if they aren’t all reasonably scored? Why can’t scoring be consistent across all three rounds? I genuinely see no reason for judges to be told to just get a certain number of bands in rather than to actually do their jobs and evaluate each band accurately. I mean no snark saying this…it’s just a little weird to hear it said that the lower placements don’t matter. They matter a lot when it’s the only performance that band gets. The number may be lower for a vast majority of bands than what they achieved previously. The tapes are what is important for the adjudication aspect of the event, and even then they may not provide too much insight. Judges will do what they can to assign a number as accurately based on the achievement and demand, but when they are seeing wide ranges across two days, it can create issues in what the number actually is. You may see a high achieving band very early on that lands in a certain box, but if you assign to high a number you are going to box yourself in if 5-6 come along and perform at a higher level. For prelims, the number means very little, and the comparison across panels is pointless. They're just trying to ensure they have the correct bands judged into the appropriate box and having the next 8 provides some wiggle room in ensuring the correct 30 move on if one panel has elevated scores.
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Post by paddy on Nov 13, 2022 10:09:51 GMT -6
This was stated by a judge yesterday during an interview on Box5. He said during the prelims round at GN we are not worried about placement, we are focusing an making sure the correct bands are selected to advance to the next round. It’s interesting that Byrnes, Carroll and Kiski that had such a jump in placement from prelims to semis all played Thursday. In fact, Byrnes and Carroll were the last two bands Thursday night. Maybe the judges grew tired? And all the bands that had a big drop in placements were from Friday prelims All 3 were Panel 2 bands. Panel disparity was huge.
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 13, 2022 10:11:06 GMT -6
I’m a big fan of Samuel Barber’s music. Makes me wonder how many times his Symphony #1 has been played at finals, let alone Adagio for Strings. From memory these groups all played Symphony #1: -Carmel 2022 -Vista Ridge 2021 -Avon 2009 -Lawrence Central 2002 I think it’s an exciting piece that can be enjoyed by the students, audience, and judges! Brownsburg had a snippet of it in their show as well I believe. I agree. One of my favorite pieces. What would be interesting if a cover story on the most consistently uses pieces, their arrangement differences and historical uses throughout competitive marching arts.
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glmain
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by glmain on Nov 13, 2022 10:17:50 GMT -6
Great show. We can have our issues with certain aspects of the judging, but two things are for certain: the kids marched and played amazingly well, and Box 5 really dropped the ball. Speaking of, anyone have access to that video we're supposedly promised? I got the message that I'm supposed to get one, but nothing yet. Where'd you receive this message? On the Box 5 website, after I complained
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 10:19:01 GMT -6
I’m a big fan of Samuel Barber’s music. Makes me wonder how many times his Symphony #1 has been played at finals, let alone Adagio for Strings. From memory these groups all played Symphony #1: -Carmel 2022 -Vista Ridge 2021 -Avon 2009 -Lawrence Central 2002 I think it’s an exciting piece that can be enjoyed by the students, audience, and judges! Way too many to count. After 1993 Star of Indiana at DCI, Samuel Barber was frequently played by many bands, including in Grand National Finals. This was especially true in the mid to late 1990s. Symphony #1 and Adagio for Strings are among the most played music in Grand National Finals. I would still say that Copland, particularly Appalachian Spring and Fanfare for the Common Man take the cake.
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Post by paddy on Nov 13, 2022 10:25:44 GMT -6
I’m a big fan of Samuel Barber’s music. Makes me wonder how many times his Symphony #1 has been played at finals, let alone Adagio for Strings. From memory these groups all played Symphony #1: -Carmel 2022 -Vista Ridge 2021 -Avon 2009 -Lawrence Central 2002 I think it’s an exciting piece that can be enjoyed by the students, audience, and judges! Way too many to count. After 1993 Star of Indiana at DCI, Samuel Barber was frequently played by many bands, including in Grand National Finals. This was especially true in the mid to late 1990s. Symphony #1 and Adagio for Strings are among the most played music in Grand National Finals. I would still say that Copland, particularly Appalachian Spring and Fanfare for the Common Man take the cake. I’m here for the time Copland gets rotated back into regular use.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 10:29:17 GMT -6
A few notable things:
- Yes, now Carmel is only one GN title away from tying Marian for most Grand National Titles.
- Carmel also swept the highest achievement awards in 2017 (although BA tied them in music) and 2018.
- The last time a band other than Carmel, Avon or Broken Arrow won visual performance in GN Finals was in 2009, when Marian Catholic tied Avon for this award.
- Avon continues their top three streak, which goes all the way back to 2007.
- There were four first time finalist bands, the last time we had that many was in 2002.
- There were 5 Indiana bands in Finals, the last time we had that many was way back in 1984.
- Dobyns-Bennett has now tied McGavock for most GN Finals appearances by a Tennesse band (five). Actually they are the only two bands from Tennessee to make GN Finals. Both bands also had their top placement being 6th.
- Archbishop Alter broke the Kentucky Class A Streak. The last time a non Kentucky band won Class A was in 2013, by another Ohio band; Bellbrook. I think based on the numbers it will be close as to whether Archbishop Alter is the smallest band to win the Class A Title. 1993 Jackson Academy had quite a few in the pit, so they were probably a little bigger. 2004 Jackson Academy may be close, but I do not know the exact numbers. I would also say that all three of those bands got a huge response from the GN Finals audience and all three performances were extremely enjoyable. Tells me that small bands can still have a big impact.
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Post by 4score on Nov 13, 2022 10:36:55 GMT -6
Great to see 4 different schools. I hadn’t heard of Hendrickson until last night. That drum major was a great trombone soloist, logistically that’s always a little wild to me when a drum major is on the field.
I was watching on box5 so lost a ton. Hoping to see Avon and tarpon again later season. Guess I’m waiting for videos…
I had Mason higher, but I love a pretty show!
I thought arch bishop alter was a super fun way to end the night!
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Post by northbanddad on Nov 13, 2022 11:08:54 GMT -6
So northbanddad if you were curious to know how The Rose compared to Rosemount's other BOA outings, Rosemount's prelims score is the 2nd highest score they've ever received at a BOA competition. The Top 10 Scores for those interested: 1. 2016 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 87.90, 3rd out of 64 ( Love at First Bite) 2. 2022 Grand National Prelims - 87.225, 18th out of 99 ( The Rose) 3. 2016 St. Louis Super Regional Finals - 87.10, 7th out of 14 ( Love at First Bite) 4. 2021 Grand National Prelims - 85.25, 26th out of 99 ( Out of the Shadows) 5. 2014 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 85.20, 4th out of 64 ( The Queen) 6. 2022 Grand National Semifinals - 84.95, 24th out of 34 ( The Rose) 7. 2013 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 84.70, 4th out of 64 ( A Rose) 8. 2017 Indianapolis Super Regional Prelims - 84.425, 8th out of 68 ( The Pack) 9. 2015 St. Louis Super Regional Prelims - 83.95, 5th out of 63 ( Pedal to the Medal) 10. 2007 St. Louis Super Regional Finals - 83.85, 3rd out of 14 ( Move or Be Moved) Thanks for the info. Needless to say I was hoping for a higher placement but not totally disappointed. 18th in prelims is good, but going down to 24th in semis is surprising. They are in a good direction and if their brass line could get better I say the future is very good.
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 13, 2022 11:09:10 GMT -6
Looking at the recaps BA kind of approached this year like 2017. They had the content scores for 2nd, but not the GE.
I agree with everyone on Carmel, they were so in time and controlled.
Still mad about American Fork
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 13, 2022 11:13:53 GMT -6
What did Nola Jones have against American Fork 🤨 she has been more of a wild card lately!
Glad to see DB have consistently high MPI scores, remember the days that used to be their weakness!
Byrnes with some very encouraging ordinals too. Have we ever seen a jump like that from outside 8 to almost finals?
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 11:15:32 GMT -6
One thing I want to point out. This is an excellent way to compare the evolution of this activity over the last 34 years. On the vintage video thread, there is a video of 1988 Marian Catholic. Although the opener was not the same, the last half of the show had the same song selections as Dobyns-Bennett. Yes the arrangements were a little different but it is such a nice way to compare how the activity has evolved. Both shows were very good by the way.
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Post by pitplayer19 on Nov 13, 2022 11:19:02 GMT -6
Looking back at AFs semi run there’s some cleanliness errors for sure. It’s a very demanding show from all sections. I’m glad many people loved the design so much! The front ensemble parts were very difficult and it was easily the funnest show I’ve played in my 4 years. Would have not traded it for a finals run. We will take being a people’s favorite. Plus, highest placement in school history! Statistically our best show ever!
I may be graduating but I know this isn’t the last you’ll see from this band. They’ll make it one year, and you can hold me to it.
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Post by trombonium on Nov 13, 2022 11:19:05 GMT -6
Starting with a disclaimer: I thought Carmel had a wonderful show/performance and I'm not saying they don't deserve the win. Also thanks to a certain streaming service I didn't get to see Tarpon or Avon in finals so I'm going off their earlier performances.
However, I'm honestly quite surprised that Carmel won the visual (performance) caption -- both their individual and ensemble visual execution just didn't seem up to par with the other top ~5 bands to me. Starting with individual, in the multi-cam I notice a lot of* incorrect horn and shoulder angles, bouncing in their backwards technique, and most of all a lack of good posture (especially among the brass). Now the ensemble visuals: it's not that they weren't clean, they frankly just weren't at the same level of difficulty as Avon, Broken Arrow, Tarpon, and Mason -- all of which performed their visuals at a comparable level of cleanliness to Carmel. The scores for both individual and ensemble execution are especially questionable when you factor in the simultaneous demand (or a relative lack thereof) with the music. Follow along with the wind players in the other top 5 bands (especially Avon, for example) and you'll see a significant increase in difficulty for the average member. Also, the other shows tended to move significantly faster and gave the marchers fewer 'breaks' (stand-still moments), requiring a bit more athleticism and air management from the wind players. I could maybe understand an argument that, since visual performance is always intertwined with visual effect, Carmel's GE implicitly gives them an advantage in their performance scores. Even then I wouldn't really agree with anything better than 3rd for Carmel on visual performance, to be quite honest, although I'm biased in that I've always felt Carmel's drill is quite boring compared to other top bands. What do you guys think? Did the others just have bad finals performances (with respect to visual performance)? Am I missing some important considerations? Please help me understand why/how Carmel won visual.
*I'll restate my disclaimer so no one gets mad: When I say Carmel had "a lot of" mistakes this run I mean "a lot of mistakes relative to both Carmel's usual performances and relative to the top 5 or so bands. Even when Carmel has an awful performance by their standards it's obviously better than 99% of other bands best performances. And of course this is all just my opinion on an extremely subjective activity, so disagreement is natural.
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Post by doublegeez on Nov 13, 2022 11:33:06 GMT -6
Starting with a disclaimer: I thought Carmel had a wonderful show/performance and I'm not saying they don't deserve the win. Also thanks to a certain streaming service I didn't get to see Tarpon or Avon in finals so I'm going off their earlier performances. However, I'm honestly quite surprised that Carmel won the visual (performance) caption -- both their individual and ensemble visual execution just didn't seem up to par with the other top ~5 bands to me. Starting with individual, in the multi-cam I notice a lot of* incorrect horn and shoulder angles, bouncing in their backwards technique, and most of all a lack of good posture (especially among the brass). Now the ensemble visuals: it's not that they weren't clean, they frankly just weren't at the same level of difficulty as Avon, Broken Arrow, Tarpon, and Mason -- all of which performed their visuals at a comparable level of cleanliness to Carmel. The scores for both individual and ensemble execution are especially questionable when you factor in the simultaneous demand (or a relative lack thereof) with the music. Follow along with the wind players in the other top 5 bands (especially Avon, for example) and you'll see a significant increase in difficulty for the average member. Also, the other shows tended to move significantly faster and gave the marchers fewer 'breaks' (stand-still moments), requiring a bit more athleticism and air management from the wind players. I could maybe understand an argument that, since visual performance is always intertwined with visual effect, Carmel's GE implicitly gives them an advantage in their performance scores. Even then I wouldn't really agree with anything better than 3rd for Carmel on visual performance, to be quite honest, although I'm biased in that I've always felt Carmel's drill is quite boring compared to other top bands. What do you guys think? Did the others just have bad finals performances (with respect to visual performance)? Am I missing some important considerations? Please help me understand why/how Carmel won visual.
*I'll restate my disclaimer so no one gets mad: When I say Carmel had "a lot of" mistakes this run I mean "a lot of mistakes relative to both Carmel's usual performances and relative to the top 5 or so bands. Even when Carmel has an awful performance by their standards it's obviously better than 99% of other bands best performances. And of course this is all just my opinion on an extremely subjective activity, so disagreement is natural. No you’re absolutely right on all of that, I also noticed plenty of foot phasing which actually really hurt to see someone who got the highest visual score being able to get away with it due to other individuals being able to hide with the amount of performers Carmel has
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