charredbrown
Senior Member
Morton Alum, currently teaching band at Lutheran North High School in MI
Posts: 87
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Post by charredbrown on Nov 14, 2022 10:28:30 GMT -6
I am sure I have some major fallacy in this idea, but has an Olympic-style judging panel ever been brought up? It would require more judges than we have now, but if there could be enough judges to drop the highest and lowest scores in each caption, then average the rest, I feel like we could come up with much more consistent scoring. I also know there is the whole argument about how the goal of prelims/semis is to move the right bands ahead to the next round. While this is definitely true to some extent, when placements are moving around 10+ places between prelims and semis, the quality and accuracy of the judging must to be taken into account. If band XYZ can change 10 places from prelims to semis, who is to say that band ZYX that placed 40s-30s didn't deserve a spot in semis? Of course, runs can greatly differ from performance to performance, and I also love a bit of drama, there was just too much inconsistency for me this year. I think that more than anything, consistency in comments and scoring helps band directors clearly see what needs to be improved and what they are excelling at. Regardless of placements, this was a GREAT year for nationals, and every band should be proud of what they accomplished. So well said! The 40s-30s are exactly my point of focus. I think the issue with assigning more judges is that the judging pool is already under what it needs to be. They've had to scramble to find judges for some events this year, or so I've heard. That doesn't surprise me. Does anyone here know the criteria for becoming a judge? Seems like something some people on here should possibly look into, even at the local level.
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Post by philodemus on Nov 14, 2022 10:33:59 GMT -6
Every judge I know personally can basically work every weekend of the fall and winter, if they want to. If you dig this stuff and are going to go to some shows anyway... might as well get paid for it!
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 14, 2022 10:36:45 GMT -6
Every judge I know personally can basically work every weekend of the fall and winter, if they want to. If you dig this stuff and are going to go to some shows anyway... might as well get paid for it! And there are still shows that don't have enough qualified judges available to have a full panel.
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Post by redpants on Nov 14, 2022 10:41:10 GMT -6
I am sure I have some major fallacy in this idea, but has an Olympic-style judging panel ever been brought up? It would require more judges than we have now, but if there could be enough judges to drop the highest and lowest scores in each caption, then average the rest, I feel like we could come up with much more consistent scoring. To work right this would probably require, at minimum, four judges per sub-caption, so 24 judges; eight would be prowling the field and the other sixteen packed into the press box!
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Post by paddy on Nov 14, 2022 10:42:22 GMT -6
So well said! The 40s-30s are exactly my point of focus. I think the issue with assigning more judges is that the judging pool is already under what it needs to be. They've had to scramble to find judges for some events this year, or so I've heard. That doesn't surprise me. Does anyone here know the criteria for becoming a judge? Seems like something some people on here should possibly look into, even at the local level. I know nothing of the criteria, but having read an embarrassingly large number of judges bios here is a typical profile... Participation at a competitive HS program (becoming more common) DCI/Independent WGI performance Work as an instructor/designer/band director Degree in music performance/education, dance or the arts of some type With that said, there are a number of judges who have jobs not related to the pageantry arts, but do have a competitive background as a performer.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 14, 2022 10:43:07 GMT -6
So well said! The 40s-30s are exactly my point of focus. I think the issue with assigning more judges is that the judging pool is already under what it needs to be. They've had to scramble to find judges for some events this year, or so I've heard. That doesn't surprise me. Does anyone here know the criteria for becoming a judge? Seems like something some people on here should possibly look into, even at the local level. I'm sure it's pretty strict. I'm also sure that many retired band directors would rather be free of band than spend their retirement tangled up in it. I would at some point like to see a diversity initiative established with respect to assigning judges, but how many people are jumping to judge? In a perfect world, we have a diverse panel of judges from all sorts of backgrounds, age (within reason), and section, including people outside of the marching arts who can offer insight on artistic quality.
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Post by paddy on Nov 14, 2022 10:46:10 GMT -6
That doesn't surprise me. Does anyone here know the criteria for becoming a judge? Seems like something some people on here should possibly look into, even at the local level. I'm sure it's pretty strict. I'm also sure that many retired band directors would rather be free of band than spend their retirement tangled up in it. I would at some point like to see a diversity initiative established with respect to assigning judges, but how many people are jumping to judge? In a perfect world, we have a diverse panel of judges from all sorts of backgrounds, age (within reason), and section, including people outside of the marching arts who can offer insight on artistic quality. Many judges aren't retired band directors, but rather middle aged folks who left the director world to be an independent designer, freelance instructor, etc.
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 14, 2022 11:54:06 GMT -6
Some fun Numbers breakdowns:
Scoring Gap 1st-12th: 9.350
The last time we were close to that number of in 2015 at 9.250.
The last time we had a finals with a number larger than that was 2014 @ 10.690.
-edit Of first time finalists, Southlake Carroll/The Sound of Brownsburg have the 3rd highest first time GNF appearance score @ 91.00. Panoma in 96 @ 91.350 and our 2019 GNF Champion Vandergift @ 97.175 fared better in their first appearances.
4 new finalists: Brownsburg, Fisher, Robert E. Henrickson and Southlake Carroll. First time more than one band was new to finals since 2018 feature newcomers: Jenks, O'Fallon Township and Prosper.
The largest batch of fresh blood to finals since 2002: Kennesaw Mountain, Ronald Regan, Stephen F. Austin, The Woodlands all made their mark. We had meanderings of 3s, some 2s, 1s and a few years with no new finalists since 2002. Since 1986!!!! there has only been 3 times where finals saw 4 new names in a given year. (86/02/22) An event that occurs close two once every 20 years. You have to go back to 1985 to find 6 new finalists. edit-
The streak for longest absence from Finals continues at 46 years for the following schools: Chesaning Union, MI; Herscher, IL; Madison-Mayodan, NC; Rock Falls, IL and Sturgis, MI. All participants of MBA's 1976 finals.
No new states represented in GNF since: Lord knows when. My stupid spreadsheet isn't set up for that data point.
1st to 2nd 1.35 Biggest Gap since The Woodlands victory in GNF in 2013. 96.800 for The Woodlands, 95.450 for Carmel. 2nd to 3rd .05 Closest gap in more than a decade. In 2009 there was a scoring tie between L.D. Bell and Marian Catholic broken by the GE rule assigning L.D. Bell second place over Marian Catholic. 95.250 3rd to 4th .9 Biggest gap since 2019 when Hebron came in 3rd @ 95.550 and Carmel @ 94.575
Carmel matched their 2017 GNF victory score of 97.500.
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Post by lostchoirguy on Nov 14, 2022 11:57:42 GMT -6
Some fun Numbers breakdowns: Scoring Gap 1st-12th: 9.350 The last time we were close to that number of in 2015 at 9.250. The last time we had a finals with a number larger than that was 2014 @ 10.690. Of first time finalists, The Sound of Brownsburg has the 3rd highest first time GNF appearance score @ 91.00. Panoma in 96 @ 91.350 and our 2019 GNF Champion Vandergift @ 97.175 fared better in their first appearances. 3 new finalists: Brownsburg, Fisher and Robert E. Henrickson. First time more than one band was new to finals since 2018 feature newcomers: Jenks, O'Fallon Township and Prosper. The largest batch of fresh blood to finals is still 2002: Kennesaw Mountain, Ronald Regan, Stephen F. Austin, The Woodlands all made their mark. We had meanderings of 3s, some 2s, 1s and a few years with no new finalists since 2002. The streak for longest absence from Finals continues at 46 years for the following schools: Chesaning Union, MI; Herscher, IL; Madison-Mayodan, NC; Rock Falls, IL and Sturgis, MI. All participants of MBA's 1976 finals. No new states represented in GNF since: Lord knows when. My stupid spreadsheet isn't set up for that data point. 1st to 2nd 1.35 Biggest Gap since The Woodlands victory in GNF in 2013. 96.800 for The Woodlands, 95.450 for Carmel.2nd to 3rd .05 Closest gap in more than a decade. In 2009 there was a scoring tie between L.D. Bell and Marian Catholic broken by the GE rule assigning L.D. Bell second place over Marian Catholic. 95.2503rd to 4th .9 Biggest gap since 2019 when Hebron came in 3rd @ 95.550 and Carmel @ 94.575
Carmel matched their 2017 GNF victory score of 97.500. Southlake Carroll is a first time finalist as well.
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Post by Allohak on Nov 14, 2022 12:02:30 GMT -6
Some fun Numbers breakdowns: Scoring Gap 1st-12th: 9.350 The last time we were close to that number of in 2015 at 9.250. The last time we had a finals with a number larger than that was 2014 @ 10.690. Of first time finalists, The Sound of Brownsburg has the 3rd highest first time GNF appearance score @ 91.00. Panoma in 96 @ 91.350 and our 2019 GNF Champion Vandergift @ 97.175 fared better in their first appearances. 3 new finalists: Brownsburg, Fisher and Robert E. Henrickson. First time more than one band was new to finals since 2018 feature newcomers: Jenks, O'Fallon Township and Prosper. The largest batch of fresh blood to finals is still 2002: Kennesaw Mountain, Ronald Regan, Stephen F. Austin, The Woodlands all made their mark. We had meanderings of 3s, some 2s, 1s and a few years with no new finalists since 2002. The streak for longest absence from Finals continues at 46 years for the following schools: Chesaning Union, MI; Herscher, IL; Madison-Mayodan, NC; Rock Falls, IL and Sturgis, MI. All participants of MBA's 1976 finals. No new states represented in GNF since: Lord knows when. My stupid spreadsheet isn't set up for that data point. 1st to 2nd 1.35 Biggest Gap since The Woodlands victory in GNF in 2013. 96.800 for The Woodlands, 95.450 for Carmel.2nd to 3rd .05 Closest gap in more than a decade. In 2009 there was a scoring tie between L.D. Bell and Marian Catholic broken by the GE rule assigning L.D. Bell second place over Marian Catholic. 95.2503rd to 4th .9 Biggest gap since 2019 when Hebron came in 3rd @ 95.550 and Carmel @ 94.575
Carmel matched their 2017 GNF victory score of 97.500. Carroll also a first-timer this year Last new state represented in finals was when Blue Springs made it for the forst time in 2015
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Post by 1970 on Nov 14, 2022 12:28:34 GMT -6
Every judge I know personally can basically work every weekend of the fall and winter, if they want to. If you dig this stuff and are going to go to some shows anyway... might as well get paid for it! i know two judges personally that are not willing to get back into the activity just yet... because even with the vaccine.. they are at a high risk for a more severe risk if they are exposed to covid... we are still technically in a pandemic ...which might still have an impact on the judging pool.
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 14, 2022 12:33:50 GMT -6
Carroll also a first-timer this year Last new state represented in finals was when Blue Springs made it for the forst time in 2015 Thank you for that. I'll need to add that to my sheet. Missed that. So In reality this is the largest batch of new finalists since 2002. Additional that means Southlake Carroll and Brownsburg share the third highest first time appearance score. Interesting note. This finals featured more non AAAA competitors than in recent years. 4. 2016 Finals featured 7 non AAAA bands. (6 AAA and 1 AA) and the only finals in the post 2009 era to do so. 2010 had it spit evenly between AAAA and the other classes combined.
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Post by Jake W. on Nov 14, 2022 13:56:01 GMT -6
Last new state represented in finals was when Blue Springs made it for the forst time in 2015 Before that, LA in 2008 when Lafayette made it in, and before that......?? I guess Irmo for SC & Jackson Academy for MS, both in the early 90s?? I really don't think I had any idea until doing a quick rundown in my head how ridiculously infrequently this happens! Next up would be AR with Bentonville and MN with Rosemount, but as both bands have found, it's a whole extra, super-difficult leap to become a Finalist-level group after figuring out how to be a group that lands in the 20s at Semis. Way further down the list would be NM with Clovis & SD with Sioux Falls Lincoln, but those are wayyyy off, if either of those bands ever even attend GN (which I imagine they will eventually). Beyond that....I don't see any first-time states that have a shot of getting a GN Finalist any time in the foreseeable future.
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Post by dbalash on Nov 14, 2022 14:21:02 GMT -6
Last new state represented in finals was when Blue Springs made it for the forst time in 2015 Before that, LA in 2008 when Lafayette made it in, and before that......?? I guess Irmo for SC & Jackson Academy for MS, both in the early 90s?? I really don't think I had any idea until doing a quick rundown in my head how ridiculously infrequently this happens! Next up would be AR with Bentonville and MN with Rosemount, but as both bands have found, it's a whole extra, super-difficult leap to become a Finalist-level group after figuring out how to be a group that lands in the 20s at Semis. Way further down the list would be NM with Clovis & SD with Sioux Falls Lincoln, but those are wayyyy off, if either of those bands ever even attend GN (which I imagine they will eventually). Beyond that....I don't see any first-time states that have a shot of getting a GN Finalist any time in the foreseeable future. First time in finals by state:California: 1976 (Live Oak) Colorado: 1996 (Pomona) Florida: 1979 (J.M. Tate) Georgia: 1980 (South Cobb, Sprayberry) Illinois: 1976 (Conant, Crystal Lake, Dundee, Rock Falls, Herscher) Indiana: 1978 (Haworth) Iowa: 1976 (Oskaloosa) Kentucky: 1977 (Murray) Louisiana: 1980 (Comeaux) Maryland: 1980 (Southern Garrett) Michigan: 1976 (Bridgeport, Cheasning, Sturgis) Mississippi: 1976 (Kosciusko) Missouri: 2015 (Blue Springs) New York: 1984 (Liverpool) North Carolina: 1976 (Madison-Mayodan) Ohio: 1979 (Hilliard) Oklahoma: 1986 (Union) Pennsylvania: 1977 (MacDowell) South Carolina: 1991 (Irmo) Tennessee: 1986 (McGavock) Texas: 1985 (Westfield) Utah: 1995 (American Fork) Virginia: 1979 (Falls Church) Wisconsin: 1978 (Oregon)
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Post by paddy on Nov 14, 2022 14:40:56 GMT -6
Before that, LA in 2008 when Lafayette made it in, and before that......?? I guess Irmo for SC & Jackson Academy for MS, both in the early 90s?? I really don't think I had any idea until doing a quick rundown in my head how ridiculously infrequently this happens! Next up would be AR with Bentonville and MN with Rosemount, but as both bands have found, it's a whole extra, super-difficult leap to become a Finalist-level group after figuring out how to be a group that lands in the 20s at Semis. Way further down the list would be NM with Clovis & SD with Sioux Falls Lincoln, but those are wayyyy off, if either of those bands ever even attend GN (which I imagine they will eventually). Beyond that....I don't see any first-time states that have a shot of getting a GN Finalist any time in the foreseeable future. First time in finals by state:California: 1976 (Live Oak) Colorado: 1996 (Pomona) Florida: 1979 (J.M. Tate) Georgia: 1980 (South Cobb, Sprayberry) Illinois: 1976 (Conant, Crystal Lake, Dundee, Rock Falls, Herscher) Indiana: 1978 (Haworth) Iowa: 1976 (Oskaloosa) Kentucky: 1977 (Murray) Louisiana: 1980 (Comeaux) Maryland: 1980 (Southern Garrett) Michigan: 1976 (Bridgeport, Cheasning, Sturgis) Mississippi: 1976 (Kosciusko) Missouri: 2015 (Blue Springs) New York: 1984 (Liverpool) North Carolina: 1976 (Madison-Mayodan) Ohio: 1979 (Hilliard) Oklahoma: 1986 (Union) Pennsylvania: 1977 (MacDowell) South Carolina: 1991 (Irmo) Tennessee: 1986 (McGavock) Texas: 1985 (Westfield) Utah: 1995 (American Fork) Virginia: 1979 (Falls Church) Wisconsin: 1978 (Oregon) Fun fact - Haworth HS (IN) no longer exists. It was opened in 1968 and closed in 1984 as it merged back into Kokomo High School.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 14, 2022 15:03:18 GMT -6
First time in finals by state:... Indiana: 1978 (Haworth) ... Ohio: 1979 (Hilliard) Fun fact - Haworth HS (IN) no longer exists. It was opened in 1968 and closed in 1984 as it merged back into Kokomo High School. And while Hilliard H.S. (OH) does still exist, it was renamed Hilliard Davidson H.S. in 1997 when Hilliard Darby H.S. opened. Hilliard Bradley H.S., which opened in 2009, is the only one of the three that competes in BOA these days (and I would argue that this year they were third best of the group), so if they should ever gear up in BOA and actually make it to Finals, they'd be a new school at that event and not a returning one.
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Post by It's Just Band on Nov 14, 2022 15:31:08 GMT -6
Carroll also a first-timer this year Last new state represented in finals was when Blue Springs made it for the forst time in 2015 Thank you for that. I'll need to add that to my sheet. Missed that. So In reality this is the largest batch of new finalists since 2002. Additional that means Southlake Carroll and Brownsburg share the third highest first time appearance score. Interesting note. This finals featured more non AAAA competitors than in recent years. 4. 2016 Finals featured 7 non AAAA bands. (6 AAA and 1 AA) and the only finals in the post 2009 era to do so. 2010 had it spit evenly between AAAA and the other classes combined. I could be wrong, but I think 2016 finals was 6 AAAA, 4 AAA, and 2 AA. That’s what it looks like on Hornrank
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Post by artsfan on Nov 14, 2022 16:19:24 GMT -6
While Carmel took home to the eagle (and deservedly so) One band actually won the weekend.....go little band go!
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Post by principalagent on Nov 14, 2022 17:08:37 GMT -6
Thank you for that. I'll need to add that to my sheet. Missed that. So In reality this is the largest batch of new finalists since 2002. Additional that means Southlake Carroll and Brownsburg share the third highest first time appearance score. Interesting note. This finals featured more non AAAA competitors than in recent years. 4. 2016 Finals featured 7 non AAAA bands. (6 AAA and 1 AA) and the only finals in the post 2009 era to do so. 2010 had it spit evenly between AAAA and the other classes combined. I could be wrong, but I think 2016 finals was 6 AAAA, 4 AAA, and 2 AA. That’s what it looks like on Hornrank This is correct, but there were 13 bands. Add another AAAA for Homestead (who bounces around classes but was in fact AAAA this year). Also, Castle actually holds the third highest first time finalist score at 91.05. Carroll and Brownsburg will have to count themselves down one spot.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 14, 2022 17:26:39 GMT -6
While Carmel took home to the eagle (and deservedly so) One band actually won the weekend.....go little band go! No doubt!! I think Alter will be the show that summarizes the season.
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Post by It's Just Band on Nov 14, 2022 20:07:39 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I think 2016 finals was 6 AAAA, 4 AAA, and 2 AA. That’s what it looks like on Hornrank This is correct, but there were 13 bands. Add another AAAA for Homestead (who bounces around classes but was in fact AAAA this year). Also, Castle actually holds the third highest first time finalist score at 91.05. Carroll and Brownsburg will have to count themselves down one spot. ah yeah, I forgot about the tie
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Post by It's Just Band on Nov 14, 2022 20:08:39 GMT -6
While Carmel took home to the eagle (and deservedly so) One band actually won the weekend.....go little band go! they made the end of the evening so fun after the streaming problems!
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Post by verysaxy on Nov 14, 2022 20:49:19 GMT -6
While Carmel took home to the eagle (and deservedly so) One band actually won the weekend.....go little band go! they made the end of the evening so fun after the streaming problems! Speaking of which, here’s Box5’s latest statement: “ ANNOUNCEMENT For our customers impacted by the outage during the Grand National Finals broadcast. We are pleased announce that BOX5-TV will be rebroadcasting the 2022 Grand National - Finals. This includes all customers who purchased a Grand National Finals, All Grand Nationals and Pro Pass. These customers will have access to view these rebroadcasts as long as they are available. The broadcast schedule is as follows: Monday - 7pm (Eastern, Central, Mountain & Pacific) Tuesday- 7pm (Eastern, Central, Mountain & Pacific) Wednesday - 7pm (Eastern, Central, Mountain & Pacific) Thursday - 7pm (Eastern, Central, Mountain & Pacific) Friday - 7pm (Eastern, Central, Mountain & Pacific) For instructions on how to access these rebroadcasts, please visit - box5tv.com/2022-grand-national-finals-rebroadcast-information/In addition, we will be offering every customer of the Grand National Finals, All Grand Nationals and Pro Pass a 15% discount on future BOX5-TV broadcasts. That would include any future broadcast or Pro Pass that BOX5-TV offers. Information regarding that coupon will be forthcoming and be sent directly to those customers. In addition, we will be reaching out to each finalist band director and offer our sincerest apologies on the issue that caused their families such disappointment and frustration during the live broadcast. We will also be offering to host a watch party for each finalist band which includes free access to the stream. Subscribers please check your email for important information. While we understand this isn’t a live broadcast, we hope it will help create some goodwill among our customers.”
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 14, 2022 21:41:30 GMT -6
Good spot checking on my stats. I was looking rather carelessly at my data and missed Castle. I’ll have to double check my class column on 2016
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Post by doublegeez on Nov 14, 2022 22:55:45 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I think 2016 finals was 6 AAAA, 4 AAA, and 2 AA. That’s what it looks like on Hornrank This is correct, but there were 13 bands. Add another AAAA for Homestead (who bounces around classes but was in fact AAAA this year). Also, Castle actually holds the third highest first time finalist score at 91.05. Carroll and Brownsburg will have to count themselves down one spot. Was homestead AAAA this year? I remember seeing in the recaps them being 4th in AAA pushing back Rosemount to 5th in class. I could be wrong?
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 15, 2022 7:58:12 GMT -6
Looks like homesteads was AAA this year. In 16 they were AAAA.
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Post by coolhornplayer on Nov 15, 2022 12:34:30 GMT -6
So sad that marching season is over
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Post by principalagent on Nov 16, 2022 11:32:35 GMT -6
This is correct, but there were 13 bands. Add another AAAA for Homestead (who bounces around classes but was in fact AAAA this year). Also, Castle actually holds the third highest first time finalist score at 91.05. Carroll and Brownsburg will have to count themselves down one spot. Was homestead AAAA this year? I remember seeing in the recaps them being 4th in AAA pushing back Rosemount to 5th in class. I could be wrong? Yes, it’s not clear that when I said “this year” I meant “this year we’re talking about now”
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Post by marco on Nov 17, 2022 0:32:22 GMT -6
Seen better performances from my middle schools begenning band
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Post by trumpet300 on Nov 17, 2022 5:58:19 GMT -6
Seen better performances from my middle schools begenning band I am so happy for you. I've also seen better spelling from middle school students!
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