0002
Full Member
Posts: 39
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Post by 0002 on Nov 13, 2022 11:46:09 GMT -6
Upset American Fork dindt make finals. Maybe if they change their name to “American Spoon” they can “scoop” up a spot in Finals for GN next year.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 11:48:33 GMT -6
On the semi finals recaps on hornrank, please change the state for Plymouth-Canton from Ohio to Michigan. For those that don't know, there is a bit of a Michigan vs Ohio rivalry. So it is considered a slight for us to be mistaken for Ohio. And yes I am sure many of the Buckeyes on here would be offended if we said something like William Mason Michigan.
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0000
Senior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by 0000 on Nov 13, 2022 12:01:42 GMT -6
Interestings that BOA stands for "Bands of America", yet AMERICA-n Fork, Utah was aren't in finals.
yet another false advertisings out of this competitive. I am calling my lawyers
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 13, 2022 12:08:48 GMT -6
- Archbishop Alter broke the Kentucky Class A Streak. The last time a non Kentucky band won Class A was in 2013, by another Ohio band; Bellbrook. I think based on the numbers it will be close as to whether Archbishop Alter is the smallest band to win the Class A Title. 1993 Jackson Academy had quite a few in the pit, so they were probably a little bigger. 2004 Jackson Academy may be close, but I do not know the exact numbers. I would also say that all three of those bands got a huge response from the GN Finals audience and all three performances were extremely enjoyable. Tells me that small bands can still have a big impact. It's hard to count on Youtube, because there are few high camera shots, the video is not that sharp, the multicolored fabric beneath and around them confuses matters, the players "iron man" by switching roles multiple (with members of the guard regularly in the pit or playing a wind instrument), and the frequently run behind the one prop, but I count 25 members in the 2004 Jackson Academy band at Grand Nationals.
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Post by 21saxmom on Nov 13, 2022 12:10:56 GMT -6
Starting with a disclaimer: I thought Carmel had a wonderful show/performance and I'm not saying they don't deserve the win. Also thanks to a certain streaming service I didn't get to see Tarpon or Avon in finals so I'm going off their earlier performances. However, I'm honestly quite surprised that Carmel won the visual (performance) caption -- both their individual and ensemble visual execution just didn't seem up to par with the other top ~5 bands to me. Starting with individual, in the multi-cam I notice a lot of* incorrect horn and shoulder angles, bouncing in their backwards technique, and most of all a lack of good posture (especially among the brass). Now the ensemble visuals: it's not that they weren't clean, they frankly just weren't at the same level of difficulty as Avon, Broken Arrow, Tarpon, and Mason -- all of which performed their visuals at a comparable level of cleanliness to Carmel. The scores for both individual and ensemble execution are especially questionable when you factor in the simultaneous demand (or a relative lack thereof) with the music. Follow along with the wind players in the other top 5 bands (especially Avon, for example) and you'll see a significant increase in difficulty for the average member. Also, the other shows tended to move significantly faster and gave the marchers fewer 'breaks' (stand-still moments), requiring a bit more athleticism and air management from the wind players. I could maybe understand an argument that, since visual performance is always intertwined with visual effect, Carmel's GE implicitly gives them an advantage in their performance scores. Even then I wouldn't really agree with anything better than 3rd for Carmel on visual performance, to be quite honest, although I'm biased in that I've always felt Carmel's drill is quite boring compared to other top bands. What do you guys think? Did the others just have bad finals performances (with respect to visual performance)? Am I missing some important considerations? Please help me understand why/how Carmel won visual.
*I'll restate my disclaimer so no one gets mad: When I say Carmel had "a lot of" mistakes this run I mean "a lot of mistakes relative to both Carmel's usual performances and relative to the top 5 or so bands. Even when Carmel has an awful performance by their standards it's obviously better than 99% of other bands best performances. And of course this is all just my opinion on an extremely subjective activity, so disagreement is natural. No you’re absolutely right on all of that, I also noticed plenty of foot phasing which actually really hurt to see someone who got the highest visual score being able to get away with it due to other individuals being able to hide with the amount of performers Carmel has Since you asked, here is my take. (and please no one blow a gasket. I like having these discussions so we can all talk about "how we see it") In regard to Carmel's "individual and ensemble visual execution": in my opinion Carmel marches their entire show. Are there points where groups of them pause, do some choreo, make forms when not playing? absolutely. But they are marching. I was high on the 50 yard line last night and saw all 12 bands live. The amount of running around, out of sync that I saw from dang near every other band was insane. And it's considered part of their visual performance. But is anyone complaining that their feet aren't positioned in the exact same place in line with everyone else? Or that they aren't holding their instruments correctly? No because they aren't supposed to be. The goal is to have a chaotic group run around holding their instrument (holding it, not playing it), spin around, land on their dot, and blast the next feature WHILE STANDING STILL. How many times did we see that last night? And how difficult is that compared to having a dot for each and every point during each set of the show? Carmel did not perform it perfectly, that's impossible. But Carmel's degree of difficulty with the drill and choreo they have WHILE PLAYING an incredible difficult piece of music, is much higher than most other bands. Carmel's show had over 40 tempo changes that happened while they were marching. I think that is what you are seeing in the visual scoring. And a moment about the guard. Constantly dancing, constantly executing with weapons, props, flags. That's visual scoring too. By saying Carmel's drill is "boring" is saying that you don't like marching. You may like a little bit along with a bit of chaos and park and bark mixed in for flash. I'll be honest, after TS performed last night, and Carmel was setting up, I thought "are they even competing in the same genre?" How can someone compare TS to Carmel? How do you score it? I think what we saw was degree of difficulty. I saw very entertaining shows last night - and several that I frankly did not understand. Doesn't mean they weren't done well, but I don't like running around from a band, I like playing and marching from a band. That's why I like Carmel, and Mason, and some of BA's show, and Castle's show. I think it's a matter of taste. But when it comes to scoring, I think it's harder to do what Carmel does well, than what a lot of the other bands do well. There was a lot of hating on Carmel on this forum after Semi's were announced. And a lot of people saying on principle they wanted any other band to upset. I don't know if any of those people are still on, but it was really sad to see. The Marching Arts are so diverse and offer so much to these students. And there is a buffet of different types of shows on display every year at Nats. You will love some, you will raise an eyebrow at some, and you will turn to your friend and say "What the heck was that?" at some! But please let's agree to disagree. There is something for everyone, and the kids deserve all the applause we can give them. thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.
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Post by mk72 on Nov 13, 2022 12:12:37 GMT -6
I sat up in the 400s last night for finals, and imo, Carmel was the clear winner. Not only did they deserve the performance captions, they just were ELECTRIC last night. I’ve only gone to nats a small handful of times, but that was the most incredible, unique feeling I’ve felt watching a band at this competition. That’s my bias towards their style of show of course, but I can’t forget how I felt during their performance. This comes after me not being fond of their show this entire season, and they just proved me completely wrong.
A massive congrats to Carmel for #6 and to the 99 other bands that showed up and threw down over these past couple days. The 2023 season couldn’t come any sooner:)
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Post by 21saxmom on Nov 13, 2022 12:14:08 GMT -6
I sat up in the 400s last night for finals, and imo, Carmel was the clear winner. Not only did they deserve the performance captions, they just were ELECTRIC last night. I’ve only gone to nats a small handful of times, but that was the most incredible, unique feeling I’ve felt watching a band at this competition. That’s my bias towards their style of show of course, but I can’t forget how I felt during their performance. This comes after me not being fond of their show this entire season, and they just proved me completely wrong. A massive congrats to Carmel for #6 and to the 99 other bands that showed up and threw down over these past couple days. The 2023 season couldn’t come any sooner:) This!
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Post by trumpet300 on Nov 13, 2022 12:20:31 GMT -6
Where'd you receive this message? On the Box 5 website, after I complained Mm ok thanks
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0002
Full Member
Posts: 39
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Post by 0002 on Nov 13, 2022 12:29:00 GMT -6
I wonder if the Plymouth-Canton Educational Park has slides and swings. Maybe even a merry-go-round. Then it would be a good park.
Side note: is there a Plymouth-Canton Educational Dog Park?
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 12:36:43 GMT -6
I wonder if the Plymouth-Canton Educational Park has slides and swings. Maybe even a merry-go-round. Then it would be a good park. Side note: is there a Plymouth-Canton Educational Dog Park? No dog park that I am aware of. No slides or merry go rounds either. Just your typical high school stuff. Not many trees either. Yes makes you wonder why they call it park.
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Post by trombonium on Nov 13, 2022 12:44:49 GMT -6
No you’re absolutely right on all of that, I also noticed plenty of foot phasing which actually really hurt to see someone who got the highest visual score being able to get away with it due to other individuals being able to hide with the amount of performers Carmel has I think it's a matter of taste. But when it comes to scoring, I think it's harder to do what Carmel does well, than what a lot of the other bands do well. I guess this reply just goes to show you how subjective the activity is -- we saw the same show (although I saw it through a computer screen), yet made almost completely opposite observations! For example, I'd have to disagree with your paragraph "By saying Carmel's drill is "boring" is saying that you don't like marching. . ."; Tarpon Springs excepted (indeed, they do a lot of 'dance' moves and less 'marching' than Carmel), I felt like Carmel's 'marching' couldn't really compare to Avon's, for example. Carmel did a lot of it, but it was a bit bland, and repetitive, and most impacts and difficult musical moments were stand-still or included hardly any fast movement (in my opinion of course). Maybe the subjectivity is part of the fun of marching band. Thanks for the differing perspective though. And just to reiterate, I am honestly happy for Carmel -- as I would be for any band winning Grand Nats. I would have applauded them of course -- if I'd been in Lucas Oil and not in an apartment sadly watching through a laptop.
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Ryan
Senior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by Ryan on Nov 13, 2022 12:58:03 GMT -6
On the Box 5 website, after I complained Mm ok thanks I’m going to check this out….when I logged into my Box5, and navigated to my subscriptions, there were 2 new links at the bottom. One for Semifinals and one for Finals! Let’s see if we can watch. 🙂
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Post by doublegeez on Nov 13, 2022 13:01:18 GMT -6
I think it's a matter of taste. But when it comes to scoring, I think it's harder to do what Carmel does well, than what a lot of the other bands do well. I guess this reply just goes to show you how subjective the activity is -- we saw the same show (although I saw it through a computer screen), yet made almost completely opposite observations! For example, I'd have to disagree with your paragraph "By saying Carmel's drill is "boring" is saying that you don't like marching. . ."; Tarpon Springs excepted (indeed, they do a lot of 'dance' moves and less 'marching' than Carmel), I felt like Carmel's 'marching' couldn't really compare to Avon's, for example. Carmel did a lot of it, but it was a bit bland, and repetitive, and most impacts and difficult musical moments were stand-still or included hardly any fast movement (in my opinion of course). Maybe the subjectivity is part of the fun of marching band. Thanks for the differing perspective though. And just to reiterate, I am honestly happy for Carmel -- as I would be for any band winning Grand Nats. I would have applauded them of course -- if I'd been in Lucas Oil and not in an apartment sadly watching through a laptop.This ^^
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esco
Full Member
Posts: 34
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Post by esco on Nov 13, 2022 13:21:09 GMT -6
On the Box 5 website, after I complained Mm ok thanks So has anyone with a Box5 subscription been able to launch and watch the Finals video. I can see it and click on the link but then get the "X" in the video screen. with the following message: "The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported." Thus won't play.
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Post by banddadguy on Nov 13, 2022 13:26:09 GMT -6
I’m going to check this out….when I logged into my Box5, and navigated to my subscriptions, there were 2 new links at the bottom. One for Semifinals and one for Finals! Let’s see if we can watch. 🙂 I just tried and when I clicked on the link I got a "media could not be supported" error. So not sure it's working for anyone yet.
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Ryan
Senior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by Ryan on Nov 13, 2022 15:13:02 GMT -6
So has anyone with a Box5 subscription been able to launch and watch the Finals video. I can see it and click on the link but then get the "X" in the video screen. with the following message: "The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported." Thus won't play. Same thing here, on my iPad. Was going to check the tv later. Maybe they don’t have permission to load them yet 🤔
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Post by clariessence on Nov 13, 2022 15:25:29 GMT -6
I’m a big fan of Samuel Barber’s music. Makes me wonder how many times his Symphony #1 has been played at finals, let alone Adagio for Strings. From memory these groups all played Symphony #1: -Carmel 2022 -Vista Ridge 2021 -Avon 2009 -Lawrence Central 2002 I think it’s an exciting piece that can be enjoyed by the students, audience, and judges! Mason 2016 as well! such beautiful pieces
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0002
Full Member
Posts: 39
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Post by 0002 on Nov 13, 2022 15:33:21 GMT -6
I wonder if the Plymouth-Canton Educational Park has slides and swings. Maybe even a merry-go-round. Then it would be a good park. Side note: is there a Plymouth-Canton Educational Dog Park? No dog park that I am aware of. No slides or merry go rounds either. Just your typical high school stuff. Not many trees either. Yes makes you wonder why they call it park. Yet another examlpe of false advertisings. Bands of America will be hering from my lawyers.
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0002
Full Member
Posts: 39
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Post by 0002 on Nov 13, 2022 15:38:08 GMT -6
On the topic of false advertising’s, I have a few gripes about finals.
Brownsburg did not have a brown themed show
Castle did not build a castle (however the count from Sesame Street was a vampire and probably lived in a castle)
Torpen springs “outdoor” performance ensemble was not outside
Fishers din not have fish theme show
Caramel was not a sweet treat theme show
Who names this bands? False advertising
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Post by mww83 on Nov 13, 2022 16:24:26 GMT -6
I think this whole topic of moving facilities is just ridiculous. LOS is the best equipped to handle this event, on so many levels. Period. The subject is brought up every year as an attempt to try and discredit the winner (when it’s not their choice winner). “Well so and so wasn’t there…blah blah blah” Give it up.
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Post by ccbopmom on Nov 13, 2022 19:10:07 GMT -6
It always makes me happy to see people noticing Campbell County! I have had a child in the CCBOP every year since 2013 and watching the tremendous growth has been amazing! My youngest graduates in 2023 and I hope they continue on this upwards trajectory. Well, time for my list of shockers from this week: PRELIMS: • BA in first… if there was any round Carmel should’ve won, it’s prelims • Carroll and Byrnes so low — glad to see they jumped in semis • Still confused if I watched the same PCEP as the judges, but okay! • Grain Valley nearly missing semis, only in by .330… insane • Campbell County! CAMPBELL COUNTY! We owe whoever it was giving them the hype after Obetz an apology. Tied Miamisburg for 31st and bested EVERY other KY band! I wonder how this would’ve done at KMEA… • Panther Creek in 35th is quite high to say the least. I’ll leave it at that. Same thing for Milford in 40th, Reeths-Puffer in 42nd, and South Oldham in 49th. • On the contrary, 38th, 41st, 48th, 52nd, 59th, and 63rd are horribly low placements for Marian, MPLT, Catawba Ridge, North Hardin, Columbus, and Murray, respectively. Yet again, I’ll leave it at that but do with the last two bullet points what you will. • Overall some questionable placements, but it seemed more of a panel problem than a performance problem, which is an easy fix SEMIS: • Congrats again Mason on 2nd! • Poor American Fork :/ it’s quite easy for me to say AF deserved to be in over Hendrickson. Sorry, not sorry. • Looking at recaps, looks like MGE is what killed AF. Yet again, we’re the judges watching the same bands as us? • Rosemount in 24th was far from what I was expecting, but for some reason I’m not surprised. Brass needs some work for sure. FINALS: • Great job Carmel! The more I think about their performance last night, the more I start to agree with the judges. Stunning! • I’m sorry Avon — maybe one day it’ll happen. I truly don’t know what else they need to do to win, but eventually it’ll be their year. • Kudos to Castle! I figured Menlo Park would be in before The Count, but that just goes to show how WIDE OPEN finals was this year! Great job out of Castle and ALL bands who performed this week.
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Post by dee1991 on Nov 13, 2022 19:18:01 GMT -6
Box5tv owes us a full finals YouTube video. I missed a lot of bands last night because of their issues.
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Post by das88 on Nov 13, 2022 19:30:29 GMT -6
The pre-show music to BA’s show. Is it from something or original? Driving me nuts.
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Post by josephbandfan on Nov 13, 2022 19:57:46 GMT -6
In my opinion, for band, any open air venue is going to be far superior to an indoor one. This guy has never tossed a flag before On that note, my brother bought a rifle a couple weeks ago haha. Neither of us were in guard but we've had a makeshift rifle/sabre made out of a scrap pvc pipe and we've been tossing it for the past year. But no more pvc pipes for us lol. My brother can throw quads, fives, and a ton of other tosses. I can get a double if I'm lucky. But cut to me trying to toss on a windy day and running/screaming or my life .
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Post by rlrrll on Nov 13, 2022 20:17:47 GMT -6
The pre-show music to BA’s show. Is it from something or original? Driving me nuts. Theme from Yellowstone.
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Post by das88 on Nov 13, 2022 21:09:58 GMT -6
The pre-show music to BA’s show. Is it from something or original? Driving me nuts. Theme from Yellowstone. Ok. Got that. This was before that. Maybe just added for GN’s.
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Post by rlrrll on Nov 13, 2022 21:15:51 GMT -6
Ok. Got that. This was before that. Maybe just added for GN’s. OK, I didn't recall anything before that. Maybe I'll listen closer if I see video of them again. I thought I remember hearing that during the announcement.
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Post by HITTHEDRUM on Nov 13, 2022 21:17:33 GMT -6
Some number crunching from prelims, since I was interested in panel scoring differences. 19 bands from panel 1 and 15 bands from panel 2 made semis for a total of 34 bands. Numbers are subject to dumb coding errors on my part, so maybe take them with a grain of salt.
Median (mean) score from those 19 Panel 1 bands: 88.20 (~87.89)
Median (mean) score from those 15 Panel 2 bands: 87.20 (~87.36) Difference (p1-p2): 1.0 ( 0.53)
Median (mean) score from top 10 Panel 1 bands: 89.865 (91.188)
Median (mean) score from top 10 Panel 2 bands: 89.890 (90.378)
Difference (p1-p2): - 0.025 ( 0.81)
Median (mean) score from top 5 Panel 1 bands: 93.25 (~93.23) Median (mean) score from top 5 Panel 2 bands: 94.43 (~93.01) Difference: - 1.18 ( 0.22)
Anyways, I'm not a statistician, just bored and have nothing better to do on a Sunday night. No idea if these numbers are even helpful for anything.
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Post by Pie on Nov 13, 2022 23:29:04 GMT -6
I am sure I have some major fallacy in this idea, but has an Olympic-style judging panel ever been brought up? It would require more judges than we have now, but if there could be enough judges to drop the highest and lowest scores in each caption, then average the rest, I feel like we could come up with much more consistent scoring. I also know there is the whole argument about how the goal of prelims/semis is to move the right bands ahead to the next round. While this is definitely true to some extent, when placements are moving around 10+ places between prelims and semis, the quality and accuracy of the judging must to be taken into account. If band XYZ can change 10 places from prelims to semis, who is to say that band ZYX that placed 40s-30s didn't deserve a spot in semis? Of course, runs can greatly differ from performance to performance, and I also love a bit of drama, there was just too much inconsistency for me this year. I think that more than anything, consistency in comments and scoring helps band directors clearly see what needs to be improved and what they are excelling at. Regardless of placements, this was a GREAT year for nationals, and every band should be proud of what they accomplished.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 14, 2022 10:06:20 GMT -6
I am sure I have some major fallacy in this idea, but has an Olympic-style judging panel ever been brought up? It would require more judges than we have now, but if there could be enough judges to drop the highest and lowest scores in each caption, then average the rest, I feel like we could come up with much more consistent scoring. I also know there is the whole argument about how the goal of prelims/semis is to move the right bands ahead to the next round. While this is definitely true to some extent, when placements are moving around 10+ places between prelims and semis, the quality and accuracy of the judging must to be taken into account. If band XYZ can change 10 places from prelims to semis, who is to say that band ZYX that placed 40s-30s didn't deserve a spot in semis? Of course, runs can greatly differ from performance to performance, and I also love a bit of drama, there was just too much inconsistency for me this year. I think that more than anything, consistency in comments and scoring helps band directors clearly see what needs to be improved and what they are excelling at. Regardless of placements, this was a GREAT year for nationals, and every band should be proud of what they accomplished. So well said! The 40s-30s are exactly my point of focus. I think the issue with assigning more judges is that the judging pool is already under what it needs to be. They've had to scramble to find judges for some events this year, or so I've heard.
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