Value/Costs for a Marching Band Show

[cybrunette]

I see a lot of questions, much of them repeated from other users and myself included, regarding the costs going into a marching band show be it music, copyright, show design, equipment, props, etc. and where to find sources for purchases. There are also a few short 1 response questions that I haven't been able to find even though I've been digging for them, so I apologize for that. Just thought it'd be nice to compile the posts I've seen over various threads!

You can use this thread to either continue or ask whatever other/new questions you have in mind concerning the worth of a show.


Conversation 1 (2023 Show/Schedule Announcements);

- ilikeguard - "I don’t even want to think about how much this show costs (whether that’s in licensing or legal fees)"

- yayband914 - "Just around $3,200 if going through the proper channels."

- cybrunette - "Oh? This is an interesting conversation... My question is what is the financial difference a band has to undertake in gaining the rights, along with musical arrangement, for something more typical as let's say the selection from Cowboy Bepop in The Woodlands 2022 show compared to a monster like this $3K LofR show? Or is there not much of a difference? I can't imagine what Tarpons budget even looks like every year for just music..."

- yayband914 - "Great question, and the answer has a wide berth. It really all depends on what music you’re programming, how many pieces you’re performing, and how much your arranger charges for designing. Wind arrangers, specifically, typically charge anywhere between $2,000 and $10,000+, depending on who they are, who they’re arranging for, and various factors encompassing the arrangement itself (duration, difficulty, etc).

Pop music usually costs around “only” a couple hundred dollars per song to license. Then you have other popular, frequently-performed classical or concert music from composers like John Mackey and Eric Whitacre, who typically charge several hundred dollars per piece. And then of course, if you use music from the public domain, there is no cost. It really just depends on the amount and the type of music that is being programmed. You can get a lot of mileage out of one single 90-minute symphony or 20-minute symphonic band piece that may only cost a couple hundred dollars, and will sustain an entire 7-11 minute show.

Speaking on Tarpon specifically since you mentioned them, they used to have shows comprised of completely original music, which of course eliminates the need for copyright fees. In 2014 (the year they won Grand Nats), I believe that was the first year they used an arrangement (which was Hindemith’s Symphonic Metamorphosis), which cost them an extra few hundred bucks. Their shows nowadays are typically arrangements with several pieces, but even still, the copyright budget likely pales in comparison to the aesthetics budget.

Not sure if that answered your question satisfactorily, but just my two cents. I can tell you that the vast majority of bands are not spending $3,000+ on copyright fees."

- cybrunette - "You're answer definitely exceeded anything I was initially expecting as a response! I always knew copyright was a dated law, I just never knew it was so financially accessible for the rights of use itself... I thought it would cost a whole lot more.

I'll also throw these questions out there to feed my curiosity...

We see increased allotted budgets within the school system happen all the time with athletic departments from schools that bring home championships or are top contenders. IIRC, and I'm not sure if it was from donations or the district themselves, I think it was Carmel (I know they're a wealthy school to begin with) that just built an indoor practice field for marching band specifically. Would you say this helps gives schools more opportunity to dig deeper into a more diverse musical selection? Or are these bills being paid through normal band fees? In my case at least band fees were never broken down that specifically enough where I would see a charge like that and I don't have any kids to even be enrolled in band for me to ask questions like that to a staff member directly.

Lastly, abtwitch mentioned gatekeeping. It got me thinking about companies like Nintendo that threatens anyone and everything with lawsuits or strikes for using anything that deals with their brand / property. How hard is it to reach these very restrictive databases of wonderful music? How do you even begin to start a conversation about using music in marching band with a companies management team that probably knows nothing about marching band?"

- vidal28rdg - "This was a question literally on my mind a few days ago ‘cause I rarely hear or see an answer to this question anywhere. I was even told in one of my Ed classes, “Disney’s a non-starter, a no-go” but even then some Disney music has trickled into the activity as of late. I only want to know what are the leaps and hoops someone has to go through to get rights to music from genres and companies notoriously stingy with their Music licensing, Disney, anime music, game music, etc.?? Someone answer me this!!!😂"

- yayband914  - "Disney allows their music to be performed, but you just can’t reproduce any character likeness. A lot of video game music is allowed to be arranged and performed. Not so sure about anime, but I don’t see why not in most cases?

Most publishing companies and copyright holders that are stingy want to take a look at the completed draft before they approve. The Bernstein Foundation is an infamous example of this. They’ll approve arrangements, but only if it’s practically verbatim of Bernstein’s original works."

- weber1492 - "Well, I find this astonishing.

First of all, since Eric Whitacre was mentioned I’ll point out that there will be an interview with him on WFMT out of Chicago in the next few days. www.wfmt.com/2023/04/01/an-interview-with-eric-whitacre/.

But my astonishment regarding this post is how inexpensive it is for licensing rights. I certainly would not have used quotes around ““only” a couple of hundred dollars”. I think that’s a bargain. Why is copyright infringement so much of an issue for BoA that they can’t sell videos? To me, it’s criminal that they don’t."

- dbalash - "Synch rights and licensing rights are 2 wholly different things. Licensing rights= band has to get them, synch rights, the organization (BOA, DCI, etc.)

The most favored nations clause comes into play here as well. Say there's 2 publishers, one wants 5k for the synch rights, one wants 10k. Both get the $10k."

- yayband914 - "The MFN clause is a bunch of malarkey and doesn't hold up in court."


Conversation 2 (Which bands do you think are future grand national champions); 

- dbbandalum - "what is Wes Cartwright money?

Not necessarily directed at dbbandalum, but just to anyone who might know... don't be vague, put a number on it: what does this dude cost?"

- OHbandfan - "I’ve seen Will Pitts and Daniel Montoya selling shows for 2-5K. So I can imagine Wes could probably anywhere from 6-10k with the quality and caliber he designs at. Maybe more 🤷🏼‍♂️"

- yayband914 -"To give you an idea of what Cartwright charges, last I heard, he charges Broken Arrow over $50K to design their show (he is also frequently at rehearsals so I’m sure that factors in).

Cartwright has a $10K minimum. Easy. If not more.

It’s quality, but I have also heard from people that used to design with him that it’s “my way or the highway” and programs get what they get. They don’t even have a say in their concept, Wes just picks one and designs it."


Conversation 3 (Pieces of music you'd like to see in a marching show?)

- nomorehoney - "This might be a dumb question, but how and where do groups/show designers/band directors get the rights to play certain pieces of music that are copyrighted (specifically pieces of music owned by large corporations)? I know that "getting the rights" might not be the correct phrasing or way to refer to what is happening, but hopefully you get the gist. Who do they contact, how do they get in contact with those people, and what is the financial process like for interactions like that?"

- philodemus - "Tresona.

A single company is now basically the one-stop-shop for securing arranging and performing rights. Which is convenient, you can see if something is available in about 3 clicks and 10 seconds, but... well...

It's complicated"

------------------

& shoutout to yayband914 for being a king for sharing your knowledge!!

[hdni]

On the Wes Cartwright conversation, I would be interested in knowing what all that includes. I think for pretty good, semi-finalist caliber bands, you’re probably looking at:

8-15k for a Program Coordinator (integration of music and visual, creating moments, general costuming, silk, and set design, etc)
8-15k for a Drill Writer (this largely depends on who it is and group size - I know Leon May was charging bands large 12k back in 2016)
3-5k for Wind Arrangements
3-5k for Percussion Arrangements
1-2k for Sound Design
3-10k for Choreography

So we’re talking 25-50k for just “intellectual property”. If you look on Steve and Lindsay Vento’s website, that’s pretty much what they’re charging for total packages. I wonder if that’s all wrapped up in Wes’s price.

[dbbandalum]

I don`t think Wes Cartwright is worth millions of dollars or anything. I may have been too vague or exaggeratory in my post earlier. Mainly because I don`t know exactly what he costs. I just remember our director telling us that we hired him for much lower than what he normally asks for, and that we were barely able to afford him even after the discount. But then again, that was when I was there, and things could`ve changed a lot since then. The band may have started to receive more funding from the city since then and may be comfortably able pay Wes and his team now. But I`ll never know exactly as I`m no longer directly involved with DB anymore.

[ohioguy2]

Aug 17, 2023 14:48:12 GMT -6 hdni said:

On the Wes Cartwright conversation, I would be interested in knowing what all that includes. I think for pretty good, semi-finalist caliber bands, you’re probably looking at:

8-15k for a Program Coordinator (integration of music and visual, creating moments, general costuming, silk, and set design, etc)
8-15k for a Drill Writer (this largely depends on who it is and group size - I know Leon May was charging bands large 12k back in 2016)
3-5k for Wind Arrangements
3-5k for Percussion Arrangements
1-2k for Sound Design
3-10k for Choreography

So we’re talking 25-50k for just “intellectual property”. If you look on Steve and Lindsay Vento’s website, that’s pretty much what they’re charging for total packages. I wonder if that’s all wrapped up in Wes’s price.

Mason is paying Wes Cartwright $54,000 this year. I don’t know what other groups pay him but I imagine his top groups pay something similar.

[philodemus]

Based on the Ventos enlightening pricing guide on their site, I’m assuming these $50K+ prices from Cartwright include a team of designers under his direction, yes? I mean, still high dollar, but if it was $50K for only his program coordination services… well, that would be… something!

[ohioguy2]

Aug 17, 2023 21:30:26 GMT -6 philodemus said:

Based on the Ventos enlightening pricing guide on their site, I’m assuming these $50K+ prices from Cartwright include a team of designers under his direction, yes? I mean, still high dollar, but if it was $50K for only his program coordination services… well, that would be… something!

[br

No, that does not include what they also pay their designers. The $50,000 is just for the program coordination.

[yayband914]

Aug 17, 2023 21:36:34 GMT -6 ohioguy2 said:

Aug 17, 2023 21:30:26 GMT -6 philodemus said:

Based on the Ventos enlightening pricing guide on their site, I’m assuming these $50K+ prices from Cartwright include a team of designers under his direction, yes? I mean, still high dollar, but if it was $50K for only his program coordination services… well, that would be… something!

[br

No, that does not include what they also pay their designers. The $50,000 is just for the program coordination.

Thank you for clarifying what needed to be said. 

Mans probably is actually a millionaire. 

[philodemus]

Couple thoughts…

Well, that makes the Ventos a real bargain, doesn’t it? And their ideas are, at least to my taste, cooler than his. Just saying.

Second thought…

That’s outrageous. Utterly outrageous.

Third thought… if any band would like, I will happily take half that to tell you to build thirty iterations of one prop, put skirts on everything that moves, and park the most talented kid in the building on the sideline next to a mic for 7 minutes.

[yayband914]

Here is what a top-tier Wes Cartwright show probably looks like:

$50,000 — Program Coordination
$10,000-25,000 — Drill Design
$10,000-25,000 — Wind Arrangements
$5,000-15,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Battery Arrangements 
$5,000-10,000 — Sound Design
$5,000-10,000 — Choreography

Expect to spend a minimum of close to six figures on show design alone if you’re a group like Broken Arrow or William Mason. Again, this is just alleged based on what I have heard throughout the years and from what I have seen on these forums. But it seems to hold up. 

This is, categorically, not the norm. 

The norm looks something like this for your typical “mid-to-high tier” BOA band, give or take:

$5,000-15,000 — Program Coordination (if any)
$3,000-10,000 — Drill Design
$3,000-8,000 — Wind Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Battery Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Sound Design
$1,000-5,000 — Choreography

So probably around $20,000 at the low end and around $50,000 at the high end for design for your average band from your average suburb.

Program coordination is not a service utilized by all, and in that case it is usually more of a team effort between the director(s), music and visual designers.

This doesn’t include costs for music copyright, props, custom tops and/or updated uniforms, travel, competition signup fees, etc. 

Marching band ain’t cheap, y’all!

[hdni]

Aug 17, 2023 21:52:41 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Here is what a top-tier Wes Cartwright show probably looks like:

$50,000 — Program Coordination
$10,000-25,000 — Drill Design
$10,000-15,000 — Wind Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Battery Arrangements 
$5,000-10,000 — Sound Design
$5,000-10,000 — Choreography

Expect to spend a minimum of close to six figures on show design alone if you’re a group like Broken Arrow or William Mason. Again, this is just alleged based on what I have heard throughout the years and from what I have seen on these forums. But it seems to hold up. 

This is, categorically, not the norm. 

The norm looks something like this for your typical “mid-tier” BOA band, give or take:

$5,000-15,000 — Program Coordination (if any)
$3,000-10,000 — Drill Design
$3,000-8,000 — Wind Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Battery Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Sound Design
$1,000-5,000 — Choreography

So probably around $20,000 at the low end and around $50,000 at the high end for design for your average band from your average suburb.

Program coordination is not a service utilized by all, and in that case it is usually more of a team effort between the director(s), music and visual designers.

This doesn’t include cost for props, custom tops and/or updated uniforms, travel, competition signup fees, etc. 

Marching band ain’t cheap, y’all!

Ahhhh, I think you’re being really generous on what an “average” band - we’ll call it a band who does pretty well at local shows - is willing to spend on their design. I think “average band from average suburb” is paying $1.5-$2k for some prewritten music book. May dish out another $1.5-2k on a percussion writer who might do sound design or have a buddy do it for a few hundred bucks. $3-4k on a drill writer. Guard director is writing choreography. Band Director or college corps jock might be filling in the winds with some band body. I think the only groups who are spending $20k+ on intellectual property alone are groups who are trying to do the BOA thing well. I think groups who do okay or less at local shows are buying JWPepper or MSConcepts (or something else similar) charts for a few hundred dollars and doing a prewritten drill option or hiring someone local and cheap.

[yayband914]

Aug 17, 2023 22:06:54 GMT -6 hdni said:

Aug 17, 2023 21:52:41 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Here is what a top-tier Wes Cartwright show probably looks like:

$50,000 — Program Coordination
$10,000-25,000 — Drill Design
$10,000-15,000 — Wind Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Battery Arrangements 
$5,000-10,000 — Sound Design
$5,000-10,000 — Choreography

Expect to spend a minimum of close to six figures on show design alone if you’re a group like Broken Arrow or William Mason. Again, this is just alleged based on what I have heard throughout the years and from what I have seen on these forums. But it seems to hold up. 

This is, categorically, not the norm. 

The norm looks something like this for your typical “mid-tier” BOA band, give or take:

$5,000-15,000 — Program Coordination (if any)
$3,000-10,000 — Drill Design
$3,000-8,000 — Wind Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Battery Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Sound Design
$1,000-5,000 — Choreography

So probably around $20,000 at the low end and around $50,000 at the high end for design for your average band from your average suburb.

Program coordination is not a service utilized by all, and in that case it is usually more of a team effort between the director(s), music and visual designers.

This doesn’t include cost for props, custom tops and/or updated uniforms, travel, competition signup fees, etc. 

Marching band ain’t cheap, y’all!

Ahhhh, I think you’re being really generous on what an “average” band - we’ll call it a band who does pretty well at local shows - is willing to spend on their design. I think “average band from average suburb” is paying $1.5-$2k for some prewritten music book. May dish out another $1.5-2k on a percussion writer who might do sound design or have a buddy do it for a few hundred bucks. $3-4k on a drill writer. Guard director is writing choreography. Band Director or college corps jock might be filling in the winds with some band body. I think the only groups who are spending $20k+ on intellectual property alone are groups who are trying to do the BOA thing well. I think groups who do okay or less at local shows are buying JWPepper or MSConcepts (or something else similar) charts for a few hundred dollars and doing a prewritten drill option or hiring someone local and cheap.

Allow me to clarify my previous post. 

Those costs are for custom, from-scratch show design, and assuming all elements of show design are being hired out. 

[hdni]

Aug 17, 2023 22:09:02 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Aug 17, 2023 22:06:54 GMT -6 hdni said:

Ahhhh, I think you’re being really generous on what an “average” band - we’ll call it a band who does pretty well at local shows - is willing to spend on their design. I think “average band from average suburb” is paying $1.5-$2k for some prewritten music book. May dish out another $1.5-2k on a percussion writer who might do sound design or have a buddy do it for a few hundred bucks. $3-4k on a drill writer. Guard director is writing choreography. Band Director or college corps jock might be filling in the winds with some band body. I think the only groups who are spending $20k+ on intellectual property alone are groups who are trying to do the BOA thing well. I think groups who do okay or less at local shows are buying JWPepper or MSConcepts (or something else similar) charts for a few hundred dollars and doing a prewritten drill option or hiring someone local and cheap.

Allow me to clarify my previous post. 

Those costs are for custom, from-scratch show design. 

As someone who writes for bands of all sizes and abilities, it’s still not that expensive for “from scratch” shows. The teams I write with do custom stuff starting around $8k all in, and get as high as $50k. Even one of the biggest groups we do that does very well at local shows we stay well under that $20k mark.

I’m not saying it’s not expensive to do very well - it is! I’m just saying your average program isn’t dishing out a ton of money for intellectual stuff alone. It can be done at a reasonable price and be at the top of your local game (depending where your local game is, of course). Having said that, I think it can be done very well on a national level for not an arm and leg - CTJ was doing most of their design in house, Lipman was coordinating, Deryl Pemberton was doing the whole visual package and was quoting at $8k, and Carol Brittin Chambers was writing their wind book and was quoting at $5k. Greg Bimm at Marian as well. I know those are anomalies, but maybe not?

Last thing I’ll say on this post - I know many coordinators that are great and very well known that go toe-to-toe with Cartwright’s shows competitively that are a fraction of the price - I’ve already mentioned the Vento’s. $50k is nuts to me - but good for him if that is true!

[yayband914]

Aug 17, 2023 22:24:41 GMT -6 hdni said:

Aug 17, 2023 22:09:02 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Allow me to clarify my previous post. 

Those costs are for custom, from-scratch show design. 

As someone who writes for bands of all sizes and abilities, it’s still not that expensive for “from scratch” shows. The teams I write with do custom stuff starting around $8k all in, and get as high as $50k. Even one of the biggest groups we do that does very well at local shows we stay well under that $20k mark.

I’m not saying it’s not expensive to do very well - it is! I’m just saying your average program isn’t dishing out a ton of money for intellectual stuff alone. It can be done at a reasonable price and be at the top of your local game (depending where your local game is, of course). Having said that, I think it can be done very well on a national level for not an arm and leg - CTJ was doing most of their design in house, Lipman was coordinating, Deryl Pemberton was doing the whole visual package and was quoting at $8k, and Carol Brittin Chambers was writing their wind book and was quoting at $5k. Greg Bimm at Marian as well. I know those are anomalies, but maybe not?

Last thing I’ll say on this post - I know many coordinators that are great and very well known that go toe-to-toe with Cartwright’s shows competitively that are a fraction of the price - I’ve already mentioned the Vento’s. $50k is nuts to me - but good for him if that is true!

Understood. 

The reality is, the range of cost show design is a very wide one and there’s no easy answer. Some bands spend only a few hundred bucks on everything and design mostly in-house (mostly non-BOA or non-regional/national level circuit bands, like you said). A select few hire the best of the best in the activity and let them do what they do at astronomical price points. And then there are all the bands in between. You’re right, most popular, well-known BOA finalist designers are not charging five figures for design. If they were, they wouldn’t be so popular. The upper ends of my cost estimates are on the extreme end for sure. 

Not as extreme as Cartwright’s, but hey…

I could be a fellow show designer as well, I could not be. I might be speaking from experience as well, but I also might not be. But let’s be real, if I were a legitimate designer, I wouldn’t have all this time to check and update these forums as often as I do! 🤣 I just know a fair amount of people in the activity and always try and get their perspectives and insight on a lot of things. 

[hdni]

Aug 17, 2023 22:44:18 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Aug 17, 2023 22:24:41 GMT -6 hdni said:

As someone who writes for bands of all sizes and abilities, it’s still not that expensive for “from scratch” shows. The teams I write with do custom stuff starting around $8k all in, and get as high as $50k. Even one of the biggest groups we do that does very well at local shows we stay well under that $20k mark.

I’m not saying it’s not expensive to do very well - it is! I’m just saying your average program isn’t dishing out a ton of money for intellectual stuff alone. It can be done at a reasonable price and be at the top of your local game (depending where your local game is, of course). Having said that, I think it can be done very well on a national level for not an arm and leg - CTJ was doing most of their design in house, Lipman was coordinating, Deryl Pemberton was doing the whole visual package and was quoting at $8k, and Carol Brittin Chambers was writing their wind book and was quoting at $5k. Greg Bimm at Marian as well. I know those are anomalies, but maybe not?

Last thing I’ll say on this post - I know many coordinators that are great and very well known that go toe-to-toe with Cartwright’s shows competitively that are a fraction of the price - I’ve already mentioned the Vento’s. $50k is nuts to me - but good for him if that is true!

Understood. 

The reality is, the range of cost show design is a very wide one and there’s no easy answer. Some bands spend only a few hundred bucks on everything and design mostly in-house (mostly non-BOA or non-regional/national level circuit bands, like you said). A select few hire the best of the best in the activity and let them do what they do at astronomical price points. And then there are all the bands in between. You’re right, most popular, well-known BOA finalist designers are not charging five figures for design. If they were, they wouldn’t be so popular. The upper ends of my cost estimates are on the extreme end for sure. 

Not as extreme as Cartwright’s, but hey…

I could be a fellow show designer as well, I could not be. I might be speaking from experience as well, but I also might not be. But let’s be real, if I were a legitimate designer, I wouldn’t have all this time to check and update these forums as often as I do! 🤣

Yes you’re definitely dedicated!

[ohioguy2]

Aug 17, 2023 21:52:41 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Here is what a top-tier Wes Cartwright show probably looks like:

$50,000 — Program Coordination
$10,000-25,000 — Drill Design
$10,000-25,000 — Wind Arrangements
$5,000-15,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Battery Arrangements 
$5,000-10,000 — Sound Design
$5,000-10,000 — Choreography

Expect to spend a minimum of close to six figures on show design alone if you’re a group like Broken Arrow or William Mason. Again, this is just alleged based on what I have heard throughout the years and from what I have seen on these forums. But it seems to hold up. 

This is, categorically, not the norm. 

The norm looks something like this for your typical “mid-to-high tier” BOA band, give or take:

$5,000-15,000 — Program Coordination (if any)
$3,000-10,000 — Drill Design
$3,000-8,000 — Wind Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Battery Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Sound Design
$1,000-5,000 — Choreography

So probably around $20,000 at the low end and around $50,000 at the high end for design for your average band from your average suburb.

Program coordination is not a service utilized by all, and in that case it is usually more of a team effort between the director(s), music and visual designers.

This doesn’t include costs for music copyright, props, custom tops and/or updated uniforms, travel, competition signup fees, etc. 

Marching band ain’t cheap, y’all!

With Mason, at least, it’s documented, you just have to know where to find it. The Mason schools have a policy that all of the money spent by their booster groups to hire people has to be approved by the school board, so it all ends up in the public record of their meetings in the minutes.

If you go to Page 10 of this document you can see where Cartwright was approved for this year. It says “up to $54,000,” but I can’t imagine they get this approved and then don’t pay him all of this.

go.boarddocs.com/oh/mason/Board.nsf/files/CNDSAD71408B/$file/1.24.23%20Board%20Agenda%20Documents%20PDF.xlsx%20-%20Board%20Agenda%201.24.23%20(7).pdf

And from a different meeting, here is where Leon May was approved to be their drill writer for the year at $18,500. This one is on Page 6.

go.boarddocs.com/oh/mason/Board.nsf/files/CPWKJ9520FB8/$file/3.14.23%20Board%20Agenda%20Document.xlsx%20-%20Board%20Agenda%203.14.23.pdf


They pay Michael Rosales $24,000 for choreography and Jim Wunderlich $30,000 for music. That means just for those four designers they pay $126,500. 

[philodemus]

Aug 18, 2023 4:12:00 GMT -6 ohioguy2 said:

They pay Michael Rosales $24,000 for choreography and Jim Wunderlich $30,000 for music. That means just for those four designers they pay $126,500. 

Y'all, that show last fall was beautiful and I loved it. But I can name 10 shows that were less than $10K total which I liked almost as well. I question the proportionality.

And if they paid that kinda dough for Top Gun they should have their damned head examined.

[paddy]

Aug 18, 2023 4:12:00 GMT -6 ohioguy2 said:

Aug 17, 2023 21:52:41 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Here is what a top-tier Wes Cartwright show probably looks like:

$50,000 — Program Coordination
$10,000-25,000 — Drill Design
$10,000-25,000 — Wind Arrangements
$5,000-15,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Battery Arrangements 
$5,000-10,000 — Sound Design
$5,000-10,000 — Choreography

Expect to spend a minimum of close to six figures on show design alone if you’re a group like Broken Arrow or William Mason. Again, this is just alleged based on what I have heard throughout the years and from what I have seen on these forums. But it seems to hold up. 

This is, categorically, not the norm. 

The norm looks something like this for your typical “mid-to-high tier” BOA band, give or take:

$5,000-15,000 — Program Coordination (if any)
$3,000-10,000 — Drill Design
$3,000-8,000 — Wind Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Battery Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Sound Design
$1,000-5,000 — Choreography

So probably around $20,000 at the low end and around $50,000 at the high end for design for your average band from your average suburb.

Program coordination is not a service utilized by all, and in that case it is usually more of a team effort between the director(s), music and visual designers.

This doesn’t include costs for music copyright, props, custom tops and/or updated uniforms, travel, competition signup fees, etc. 

Marching band ain’t cheap, y’all!

With Mason, at least, it’s documented, you just have to know where to find it. The Mason schools have a policy that all of the money spent by their booster groups to hire people has to be approved by the school board, so it all ends up in the public record of their meetings in the minutes.

If you go to Page 10 of this document you can see where Cartwright was approved for this year. It says “up to $54,000,” but I can’t imagine they get this approved and then don’t pay him all of this.

go.boarddocs.com/oh/mason/Board.nsf/files/CNDSAD71408B/$file/1.24.23%20Board%20Agenda%20Documents%20PDF.xlsx%20-%20Board%20Agenda%201.24.23%20(7).pdf

And from a different meeting, here is where Leon May was approved to be their drill writer for the year at $18,500. This one is on Page 6.

go.boarddocs.com/oh/mason/Board.nsf/files/CPWKJ9520FB8/$file/3.14.23%20Board%20Agenda%20Document.xlsx%20-%20Board%20Agenda%203.14.23.pdf


They pay Michael Rosales $24,000 for choreography and Jim Wunderlich $30,000 for music. That means just for those four designers they pay $126,500. 

Frankly, that is ridiculous. 

[yayband914]

Aug 18, 2023 4:12:00 GMT -6 ohioguy2 said:

Aug 17, 2023 21:52:41 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Here is what a top-tier Wes Cartwright show probably looks like:

$50,000 — Program Coordination
$10,000-25,000 — Drill Design
$10,000-25,000 — Wind Arrangements
$5,000-15,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$5,000-10,000 — Battery Arrangements 
$5,000-10,000 — Sound Design
$5,000-10,000 — Choreography

Expect to spend a minimum of close to six figures on show design alone if you’re a group like Broken Arrow or William Mason. Again, this is just alleged based on what I have heard throughout the years and from what I have seen on these forums. But it seems to hold up. 

This is, categorically, not the norm. 

The norm looks something like this for your typical “mid-to-high tier” BOA band, give or take:

$5,000-15,000 — Program Coordination (if any)
$3,000-10,000 — Drill Design
$3,000-8,000 — Wind Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Front Ensemble Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Battery Arrangements
$2,000-5,000 — Sound Design
$1,000-5,000 — Choreography

So probably around $20,000 at the low end and around $50,000 at the high end for design for your average band from your average suburb.

Program coordination is not a service utilized by all, and in that case it is usually more of a team effort between the director(s), music and visual designers.

This doesn’t include costs for music copyright, props, custom tops and/or updated uniforms, travel, competition signup fees, etc. 

Marching band ain’t cheap, y’all!

With Mason, at least, it’s documented, you just have to know where to find it. The Mason schools have a policy that all of the money spent by their booster groups to hire people has to be approved by the school board, so it all ends up in the public record of their meetings in the minutes.

If you go to Page 10 of this document you can see where Cartwright was approved for this year. It says “up to $54,000,” but I can’t imagine they get this approved and then don’t pay him all of this.

go.boarddocs.com/oh/mason/Board.nsf/files/CNDSAD71408B/$file/1.24.23%20Board%20Agenda%20Documents%20PDF.xlsx%20-%20Board%20Agenda%201.24.23%20(7).pdf

And from a different meeting, here is where Leon May was approved to be their drill writer for the year at $18,500. This one is on Page 6.

go.boarddocs.com/oh/mason/Board.nsf/files/CPWKJ9520FB8/$file/3.14.23%20Board%20Agenda%20Document.xlsx%20-%20Board%20Agenda%203.14.23.pdf


They pay Michael Rosales $24,000 for choreography and Jim Wunderlich $30,000 for music. That means just for those four designers they pay $126,500. 

That is absolutely ludicrous. The only number I find somewhat reasonable is Leon May’s as Mason is a huge band and it’s a lot of logistics to move people around as well as Leon normally does.

Jim does both winds and percussion I believe (if only just front ensemble), and the product is always fabulous, but still… that’s a lot of money. 

I am a firm believer that people should be paid what they’re worth, but at what point does it start being more about the paycheck and adding prestigious schools to your resume and less about the kids?

[bigtrombone]

Aug 18, 2023 8:47:41 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

I am a firm believer that people should be paid what they’re worth, but at what point does it start being more about the paycheck and adding prestigious schools to your resume and less about the kids?

I've been thinking the same thing, especially in the late 2010's when Wes' team started popping up more in the midwest (Rosemount, Camdenton, etc.). Rosemount, pre-Wes, in my opinion was on a very strong trajectory and the shows that they put out in the mid-2010's were really solid. Then Wes' team came aboard in 2019, and while the shows they've put out since 2019 have been good, I do think they've lacked the charm they had in the mid-2010's. Just my 2 cents on it.

Random pivot, but Michael Gaines designs Carmel's shows, right? And if so, do any of the Indiana folks know how much Carmel pays for him? Just curious.

[philodemus]

One of the small injustices here is that Leon is paid less for the actual hair-pulling, curse at your computer, artistic but also pragmatic and mathematical challenge of actually pushing the dots than Wes is for his... ahem... 'vision.'

"It's going to be yellow, white and blue, with big swoopy tarps and big swoopy sorts of drill moves. See the genius? Everything is swoopy. Now, pay me the annual take home of a public school teacher in a decent district for that sentence while Leon here does the simple business of actually making it work. Also, it will be called Odyssey for no discernible reason whatsoever. I'll be in the hot tub."

[paddy]

In my estimation you are buying a couple things with a high dollar, well known designer...

1. You are buying a work product that is reliable and known to work. May and Gaines drill aren't going to require a ton of rework on the ground when you are teaching it and putting it in motion. The concept of a design will be sound and cohesive. Choreography will be accessible for the skill level of the students, but also demanding enough that it can score well if executed.
2. The cachet of their name. You want to be able to tell people you work with a big name in the community. People "in the know" will naturally be more open and receptive to your show. If the names didn't matter, the bands wouldn't include it in their spiel.

[yayband914]

Aug 18, 2023 13:02:44 GMT -6 paddy said:

In my estimation you are buying a couple things with a high dollar, well known designer...

1. You are buying a work product that is reliable and known to work. May and Gaines drill aren't going to require a ton of rework on the ground when you are teaching it and putting it in motion. The concept of a design will be sound and cohesive. Choreography will be accessible for the skill level of the students, but also demanding enough that it can score well if executed.
2. The cachet of their name. You want to be able to tell people you work with a big name in the community. People "in the know" will naturally be more open and receptive to your show. If the names didn't matter, the bands wouldn't include it in their spiel.

3. Music and drill delivered very late and spotty communication if you are not a premier client.

[philodemus]

Aug 18, 2023 13:04:02 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Aug 18, 2023 13:02:44 GMT -6 paddy said:

In my estimation you are buying a couple things with a high dollar, well known designer...

1. You are buying a work product that is reliable and known to work. May and Gaines drill aren't going to require a ton of rework on the ground when you are teaching it and putting it in motion. The concept of a design will be sound and cohesive. Choreography will be accessible for the skill level of the students, but also demanding enough that it can score well if executed.
2. The cachet of their name. You want to be able to tell people you work with a big name in the community. People "in the know" will naturally be more open and receptive to your show. If the names didn't matter, the bands wouldn't include it in their spiel.

3. Music and drill delivered very late and spotty communication if you are not a premier client.

Quoting for emphasis. This is a tale as old as time.

[yayband914]

Aug 18, 2023 13:06:48 GMT -6 philodemus said:

Aug 18, 2023 13:04:02 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

3. Music and drill delivered very late and spotty communication if you are not a premier client.

Quoting for emphasis. This is a tale as old as time.

And now "Beauty and the Beast" will be stuck in my head all day. 😂 

[paddy]

Aug 18, 2023 13:06:48 GMT -6 philodemus said:

Aug 18, 2023 13:04:02 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

3. Music and drill delivered very late and spotty communication if you are not a premier client.

Quoting for emphasis. This is a tale as old as time.

Technically you are not buying that, but at times you will receive it.

[bigtrombone]

So just a nugget I found regarding Wes & Camdenton. Following their 2019 season, at the November Band Booster Meeting, they approved a $7000 deposit for Jim Wunderlich, and an $8000 deposit for Wes to write and design their show for 2020 respectively. Of course, that season never came to fruition with the pandemic, but I also don't know if their 2021 show was what they were originally going to do in 2020.

Link to the source: www.camdentonbands.org/uploads/7/7/9/6/77968264/11.22.19_band_board_minutes.pdf

I'm not sure what recent costs for them have been since the public band booster minutes are only available through 2019.

[philodemus]

Okay, this thread has absolutely fascinated me to the point I am boring friends and relations talking about it… and the next thing I am now wondering and hoping this community can help me find out is:

How many Wes bands are there?

So, HornRank community…. Comprehensive list of Wes bands, go!

[Allohak]

Aug 20, 2023 6:20:19 GMT -6 philodemus said:

Okay, this thread has absolutely fascinated me to the point I am boring friends and relations talking about it… and the next thing I am now wondering and hoping this community can help me find out is:

How many Wes bands are there?

So, HornRank community…. Comprehensive list of Wes bands, go!

Tiered order is purposeful (by level of design and direct involvement) :

Broken Arrow

William Mason

Dobyns-Bennett
Prosper
Brownsburg
Mustang

LD Bell
Rosemount
James Madison
Camdenton

...I'm forgetting some

A few random Oklahoma bands close to his home base

[paddy]

Aug 20, 2023 6:48:48 GMT -6 Allohak said:

Aug 20, 2023 6:20:19 GMT -6 philodemus said:

Okay, this thread has absolutely fascinated me to the point I am boring friends and relations talking about it… and the next thing I am now wondering and hoping this community can help me find out is:

How many Wes bands are there?

So, HornRank community…. Comprehensive list of Wes bands, go!

Tiered order is purposeful (by level of design and direct involvement) :

Broken Arrow

William Mason

Dobyns-Bennett
Prosper
Brownsburg
Mustang

LD Bell
Rosemount
James Madison
Camdenton

...I'm forgetting some

A few random Oklahoma bands close to his home base

I thought I saw something recently that Camdenton was with the Ventos. Or I could have totally made that up…

[philodemus]

Can one presume that the tiers also reflect cost?