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Post by ilikeguard on Aug 20, 2023 8:22:29 GMT -6
Tiered order is purposeful (by level of design and direct involvement) : Broken Arrow William Mason Dobyns-Bennett Prosper Brownsburg Mustang LD Bell Rosemount James Madison Camdenton ...I'm forgetting some A few random Oklahoma bands close to his home base I thought I saw something recently that Camdenton was with the Ventos. Or I could have totally made that up… This rumor has been flying around since I’ve been in high school, lol. Though it wouldn’t surprise me too much if it were true someday, if only because she’s based closer than Wes is. Although there’s ANOTHER old rumor that the Cartwrights have been looking at some property at the Lake… If I’m to speculate anything, it could be neither. The show concept this year doesn’t scream Wes to me, but I’ve only heard the music. I’d have to actually see the show. There’s only so much money you can scrounge up out of a rural community to pay for a top-tier designer. I’d also dispute Camdenton being the least involved. The shows of recent have been original works as far as I’m aware, unlike a few recent Prosper shows I can think of. Last I knew the music was being arranged by Jim Wunderlich, so a cut above the schools that get the Will Pitts level of the Cartwright Package™️. But I wouldn’t be surprised if friction has developed after directorial changes a few years ago and the lack of success with last year’s program. |
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Post by ilikeguard on Aug 20, 2023 8:24:25 GMT -6
Looking closer at the tierlist that Allohak made…I think paddy is picking up on the fact that LD Bell is with Lindsey Vento now. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 20, 2023 8:39:40 GMT -6
Okay, this thread has absolutely fascinated me to the point I am boring friends and relations talking about it… and the next thing I am now wondering and hoping this community can help me find out is: How many Wes bands are there? So, HornRank community…. Comprehensive list of Wes bands, go! Tiered order is purposeful (by level of design and direct involvement) : Broken Arrow William Mason Dobyns-Bennett Prosper Brownsburg Mustang LD Bell Rosemount James Madison Camdenton ...I'm forgetting some A few random Oklahoma bands close to his home base I believe Coweta is one of those random Oklahoma bands. Is or was. |
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Post by philodemus on Aug 20, 2023 9:23:49 GMT -6
Tiered order is purposeful (by level of design and direct involvement) : Broken Arrow William Mason Dobyns-Bennett Prosper Brownsburg Mustang LD Bell Rosemount James Madison Camdenton ...I'm forgetting some A few random Oklahoma bands close to his home base So, subtracting LD Bell and adding Coweta, we have 9. If the William Mason $54K number were to be universal, we'd be talking $486,000 a year to program coordinate... but I'm guessing the lower tier groups pay less? Someone mentioned that Camdenton had put down an $8K deposit, if one were to assume that most deposits are 50% down, perhaps they're paying as "little" as $16K for program coordination at that level. [By the way, if anyone is curious, here's exactly why I'm trying put all this together: around age 17 I was told quite explicitly, "Yes, we know you love this stuff, but it's a hobby... You can't make a living at it." I long ago figured out that was incorrect, now I'm trying to work out exactly to what extent it was incorrect! No hate on Wes, live the good life, buddy!] |
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Post by bandgeek88 on Aug 20, 2023 9:25:52 GMT -6
Compensation is commensurate to creativity and skill level, just like in any other professional business…sports, attorneys, doctors, etc
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Post by bandgeek88 on Aug 20, 2023 9:30:55 GMT -6
As someone who writes for bands of all sizes and abilities, it’s still not that expensive for “from scratch” shows. The teams I write with do custom stuff starting around $8k all in, and get as high as $50k. Even one of the biggest groups we do that does very well at local shows we stay well under that $20k mark. I’m not saying it’s not expensive to do very well - it is! I’m just saying your average program isn’t dishing out a ton of money for intellectual stuff alone. It can be done at a reasonable price and be at the top of your local game (depending where your local game is, of course). Having said that, I think it can be done very well on a national level for not an arm and leg - CTJ was doing most of their design in house, Lipman was coordinating, Deryl Pemberton was doing the whole visual package and was quoting at $8k, and Carol Brittin Chambers was writing their wind book and was quoting at $5k. Greg Bimm at Marian as well. I know those are anomalies, but maybe not? Last thing I’ll say on this post - I know many coordinators that are great and very well known that go toe-to-toe with Cartwright’s shows competitively that are a fraction of the price - I’ve already mentioned the Vento’s. $50k is nuts to me - but good for him if that is true! Understood. The reality is, the range of cost show design is a very wide one and there’s no easy answer. Some bands spend only a few hundred bucks on everything and design mostly in-house (mostly non-BOA or non-regional/national level circuit bands, like you said). A select few hire the best of the best in the activity and let them do what they do at astronomical price points. And then there are all the bands in between. You’re right, most popular, well-known BOA finalist designers are not charging five figures for design. If they were, they wouldn’t be so popular. The upper ends of my cost estimates are on the extreme end for sure. Not as extreme as Cartwright’s, but hey… I could be a fellow show designer as well, I could not be. I might be speaking from experience as well, but I also might not be. But let’s be real, if I were a legitimate designer, I wouldn’t have all this time to check and update these forums as often as I do! 🤣 I just know a fair amount of people in the activity and always try and get their perspectives and insight on a lot of things. Cartwright had 5 groups in Grand National Finals last year and has 5 Grand National Championships. Who is going "Toe to Toe" with him? |
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Post by philodemus on Aug 20, 2023 9:38:44 GMT -6
Compensation is commensurate to creativity and skill level, just like in any other professional business…sports, attorneys, doctors, etc Completely agreed! The only thing that makes this a bit… murkier… maybe? Is that this is a competitive activity between public schools. As such, it’s all tied into the disparities between schools more generally due to how we fund them. |
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Post by bigtrombone on Aug 20, 2023 9:51:36 GMT -6
Understood. The reality is, the range of cost show design is a very wide one and there’s no easy answer. Some bands spend only a few hundred bucks on everything and design mostly in-house (mostly non-BOA or non-regional/national level circuit bands, like you said). A select few hire the best of the best in the activity and let them do what they do at astronomical price points. And then there are all the bands in between. You’re right, most popular, well-known BOA finalist designers are not charging five figures for design. If they were, they wouldn’t be so popular. The upper ends of my cost estimates are on the extreme end for sure. Not as extreme as Cartwright’s, but hey… I could be a fellow show designer as well, I could not be. I might be speaking from experience as well, but I also might not be. But let’s be real, if I were a legitimate designer, I wouldn’t have all this time to check and update these forums as often as I do! 🤣 I just know a fair amount of people in the activity and always try and get their perspectives and insight on a lot of things. Cartwright had 5 groups in Grand National Finals last year and has 5 Grand National Championships. Who is going "Toe to Toe" with him? I don't know, but there was this one group that was consistently winning Grand National Championships in the mid to late-2010's and also won three times in a row. I think they also won last year too. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 20, 2023 9:57:37 GMT -6
Cartwright had 5 groups in Grand National Finals last year and has 5 Grand National Championships. Who is going "Toe to Toe" with him? I don't know, but there was this one group that was consistently winning Grand National Championships in the mid to late-2010's and also won three times in a row. I think they also won last year too. Avon won three times in a row 2008-2010 but did not win last year. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 20, 2023 9:59:34 GMT -6
Understood. The reality is, the range of cost show design is a very wide one and there’s no easy answer. Some bands spend only a few hundred bucks on everything and design mostly in-house (mostly non-BOA or non-regional/national level circuit bands, like you said). A select few hire the best of the best in the activity and let them do what they do at astronomical price points. And then there are all the bands in between. You’re right, most popular, well-known BOA finalist designers are not charging five figures for design. If they were, they wouldn’t be so popular. The upper ends of my cost estimates are on the extreme end for sure. Not as extreme as Cartwright’s, but hey… I could be a fellow show designer as well, I could not be. I might be speaking from experience as well, but I also might not be. But let’s be real, if I were a legitimate designer, I wouldn’t have all this time to check and update these forums as often as I do! 🤣 I just know a fair amount of people in the activity and always try and get their perspectives and insight on a lot of things. Cartwright had 5 groups in Grand National Finals last year and has 5 Grand National Championships. Who is going "Toe to Toe" with him? There are SO many other factors that go in to how well a band performs at Grand Nationals — and any other contest — beyond just their designers. If a public school band program wanting to shell out triple to quadruple the salary of the average public school teacher for their collective of show designers if they can afford it and are striving to be ultra-competitive, then that’s their choice and ability to do so. Wes has paid his dues and can absolutely charge whatever he feels he is worth, along with his usual sphere of designers and collaborators. But people are definitely going to have their opinions about that, is all. |
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 20, 2023 10:09:04 GMT -6
On the Wes Cartwright conversation, I would be interested in knowing what all that includes. I think for pretty good, semi-finalist caliber bands, you’re probably looking at: 8-15k for a Program Coordinator (integration of music and visual, creating moments, general costuming, silk, and set design, etc) 8-15k for a Drill Writer (this largely depends on who it is and group size - I know Leon May was charging bands large 12k back in 2016) 3-5k for Wind Arrangements 3-5k for Percussion Arrangements 1-2k for Sound Design 3-10k for Choreography So we’re talking 25-50k for just “intellectual property”. If you look on Steve and Lindsay Vento’s website, that’s pretty much what they’re charging for total packages. I wonder if that’s all wrapped up in Wes’s price. Mason is paying Wes Cartwright $54,000 this year. I don’t know what other groups pay him but I imagine his top groups pay something similar. I feel like I remember Mason paying him $30,000 for “world out of balance” in 2016. I believe it was public record |
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Post by hewhowaits on Aug 20, 2023 10:38:48 GMT -6
Can one presume that the tiers also reflect cost? Likely, as the tiers are based on direct involvement which comes at an extra cost. |
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Post by macwinlin on Aug 20, 2023 13:10:11 GMT -6
In 2016, BA paid Don Hill 18k for wind arrangements and 15k for drill services from Leon May. There were also contracts totaling over 35k for other visual design and guard staff. I want to say they didn’t use Cartwright in the same way as usual that year, but not positive.
As someone mentioned above, the high costs come with a lot of direct involvement, extra material, and re-writes, if needed. In the past, BA would field one movement, but then completely change it by STL or GN. In 2012, for example, BA’s original opener included music from Enigma Variations, along with different drill. Custom changes like this wouldn’t be possible without the team and $ to make it happen, but this group is obviously on the high end of what programs pay.
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Post by bandgeek88 on Aug 20, 2023 15:11:27 GMT -6
Well, that makes the Ventos a real bargain, doesn’t it? And their ideas are, at least to my taste, cooler than his. Just saying. The Ventos have won 1 Regional (Iowa 2019)... after digging through recaps Team Wes has won 47 (Super Regional & Regional) Championships. I guess you get what you pay for. |
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Post by Momof20613 on Aug 20, 2023 15:14:06 GMT -6
I am not an expert by any mean, I’m not even a novice, I’m just a mom, who happens to be band booster pres so I see our numbers with regularity. Our show designer is Becca Anderson, not a big name, but she designs for a handful of schools as well as the Mandarins. I’ve always wondered if our show costs are high or low or in the middle.
Our budget says:
Show designer-$30,000
Music-$6700
Percussion music-$3600
Visual design-$9500
For a grand total of $49,800 for just the show, excluding props/flags/contest jackets/guard uniforms/travel etc etc
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Post by macwinlin on Aug 20, 2023 15:41:06 GMT -6
The Ventos have won 1 Regional (Iowa 2019)... after digging through recaps Team Wes has won 47 (Super Regional & Regional) Championships. I guess you get what you pay for. Comparing them like that is a joke. They all do different things, and have over different periods of time. Let’s not forget that Steve Vento has arranged for many groups since the 90’s, including BA during the late 90s through 2003. Steve and Lindsey were a large part of Union’s resurgence in the late 2000s, followed by Blue Springs’ rise, and now they’re doing great things in more places. |
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Post by philodemus on Aug 20, 2023 15:49:22 GMT -6
Well, that makes the Ventos a real bargain, doesn’t it? And their ideas are, at least to my taste, cooler than his. Just saying. The Ventos have won 1 Regional (Iowa 2019)... after digging through recaps Team Wes has won 47 (Super Regional & Regional) Championships. I guess you get what you pay for. So, is that how you decide your aesthetic preferences? Whoever wins is your favorite? Do you only listen to Top 40 songs because they’re ‘winning’? Is your favorite painting the one that fetches the most at auction? I think Team Wes is great. I personally prefer the designs the Ventos put out. Win-loss records are entirely immaterial. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 20, 2023 18:15:03 GMT -6
Well, that makes the Ventos a real bargain, doesn’t it? And their ideas are, at least to my taste, cooler than his. Just saying. The Ventos have won 1 Regional (Iowa 2019)... after digging through recaps Team Wes has won 47 (Super Regional & Regional) Championships. I guess you get what you pay for. How many of those are repeat perennial streaks like Broken Arrow and L.D. Bell though? When you’re fortunate to work with the best educators and programs in the nation then yes, it’s much easier to maintain that level of excellence and be able to claim that as a designer. Also, how much of it is “Team Wes won” over “this really talented group of students under the best educational leadership with the best possible available resources won”? Or even luck of the lineup at any given show. No doubt competitive success comes from a combination of both designers and educators, but point being, the design team isn’t the sole impetus for a group’s success. Sometimes I feel like that gets forgotten when talking about what designers are the best of the best. I have the feeling that you personally know or collaborate with Wes, otherwise you wouldn’t have created an account just today to talk about this subject, as well as knowing his clientele intimately enough to be able to count the number of BOA Regionals and Supers “he” has won. Nothing wrong with defending your friends and colleagues, if that’s the case. Personally, I am a big fan of the majority of Team Cartwright’s output and as I said, Wes has paid his dues and deserves to be compensated whatever he thinks he’s worth. The compensation differential however is just a fascinating, if somewhat uncouth and in poor taste, subject to discuss. |
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Post by Allohak on Aug 20, 2023 19:41:32 GMT -6
Looking closer at the tierlist that Allohak made…I think paddy is picking up on the fact that LD Bell is with Lindsey Vento now. Ope, missed that change. Sorry LV! |
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Post by rickyrosay on Aug 21, 2023 8:16:17 GMT -6
Is there a place that shows what designers are working where? Just a working database of who's with what programs? Or is that virtually impossible to compile?
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Post by dbalash on Aug 21, 2023 8:27:02 GMT -6
Well, that makes the Ventos a real bargain, doesn’t it? And their ideas are, at least to my taste, cooler than his. Just saying. The Ventos have won 1 Regional (Iowa 2019)... after digging through recaps Team Wes has won 47 (Super Regional & Regional) Championships. I guess you get what you pay for. The Ventos have won more than one - Steve was arranger for Broken Arrow through the mid 2000's. |
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Post by dbalash on Aug 21, 2023 8:27:25 GMT -6
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Post by principalagent on Aug 21, 2023 8:34:41 GMT -6
The Ventos have won 1 Regional (Iowa 2019)... after digging through recaps Team Wes has won 47 (Super Regional & Regional) Championships. I guess you get what you pay for. The Ventos have won more than one - Steve was arranger for Broken Arrow through the mid 2000's. And Vista Ridge’s 2019 win in Midland. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 21, 2023 8:55:17 GMT -6
Is there a place that shows what designers are working where? Just a working database of who's with what programs? Or is that virtually impossible to compile? There is not and I hope there never is. Marching band is about the kids, not the design team. |
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Post by rickyrosay on Aug 21, 2023 9:55:46 GMT -6
Is there a place that shows what designers are working where? Just a working database of who's with what programs? Or is that virtually impossible to compile? There is not and I hope there never is. Marching band is about the kids, not the design team. It is! I think that a list can be compiled without taking away from what students are doing. BUT, I think it would be interesting to see how many groups share the same teams or share teams with drum corps etc. The list would be, As the tik tokers say, "For educational purposes only." |
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 21, 2023 10:23:48 GMT -6
Wes has a podcast I think from 2016 on marching roundtable - definitely worth a listen. Vento also is on YouTube on a few podcasts that show up. You can tell that both care and are very sensitive to the kids experience while giving them cutting edge programs that make them think and are engaging for the audience. Don't think you can go wrong with either one.
Some bands have the ability to spend millions of dollars on these productions, but most do not. There will always be disparities, that is just how it goes
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Post by bandirectorman on Aug 21, 2023 10:24:15 GMT -6
There is not and I hope there never is. Marching band is about the kids, not the design team. It is! I think that a list can be compiled without taking away from what students are doing. BUT, I think it would be interesting to see how many groups share the same teams or share teams with drum corps etc. The list would be, As the tik tokers say, "For educational purposes only." I don't want to take away from what the students are performing and how well they perform it on the field, especially in the upper tiers of BOA, however, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to pay for this year after year. Bringing in ringers to arrange or design shows, while a profitable business for the adults at the table, is like putting training wheels on a product for directors and internal staff who are apparently incapable of doing it themselves. It's corrupting the activity, in my opinion and is pricing out other quality ensembles who do not or cannot rely on the heavy six-figure training wheels approach every year. Not everyone is good at everything. I understand this. Some 'educators' make money on the side selling their 'expertise' to other programs and I don't decry their right to make a living. Some directors may be able to conduct a wind ensemble very well but couldn't tell you where the 50 yard line is on a football field, let alone demonstrate how to march. I get that. This isn't a class-warfare complaint.. but it's more that 'training wheels' design/crutches/whatever.... should be regulated while competing within Bands of America events. I'm not advocating for a 100% ban on outside help, but think it's important to limit the number of groups competing in said events that OUTSIDE individuals should work on. Everyone uses outside staff for something... even the schools who don't have a lot of money but have been successful or more successful in BOA. But I'm looking at a number of programs who made their names in the arena largely on the backs of designers who were purchased to produce the program. It's high school band.. Sad that so much is going into this aspect of 'music education'. Money can be better spent elsewhere.. LOL, Drum corps exists for this.. stop trying to be a drum corps. Ideal scenario: Band director (+school staff) produces the program. School staff = teaching classes. It'll never happen, but it should. Then, we'd really see evolution of the activity beyond the carbon copies that are out there today. Again, well performed, but uninteresting and pre-packaged. Purchased. A reality... but somewhat unethical, in my opinion. |
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 21, 2023 10:48:57 GMT -6
It is! I think that a list can be compiled without taking away from what students are doing. BUT, I think it would be interesting to see how many groups share the same teams or share teams with drum corps etc. The list would be, As the tik tokers say, "For educational purposes only." I don't want to take away from what the students are performing and how well they perform it on the field, especially in the upper tiers of BOA, however, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to pay for this year after year. Bringing in ringers to arrange or design shows, while a profitable business for the adults at the table, is like putting training wheels on a product for directors and internal staff who are apparently incapable of doing it themselves. It's corrupting the activity, in my opinion and is pricing out other quality ensembles who do not or cannot rely on the heavy six-figure training wheels approach every year. Not everyone is good at everything. I understand this. Some 'educators' make money on the side selling their 'expertise' to other programs and I don't decry their right to make a living. Some directors may be able to conduct a wind ensemble very well but couldn't tell you where the 50 yard line is on a football field, let alone demonstrate how to march. I get that. This isn't a class-warfare complaint.. but it's more that 'training wheels' design/crutches/whatever.... should be regulated while competing within Bands of America events. I'm not advocating for a 100% ban on outside help, but think it's important to limit the number of groups competing in said events that OUTSIDE individuals should work on. Everyone uses outside staff for something... even the schools who don't have a lot of money but have been successful or more successful in BOA. But I'm looking at a number of programs who made their names in the arena largely on the backs of designers who were purchased to produce the program. It's high school band.. Sad that so much is going into this aspect of 'music education'. Money can be better spent elsewhere.. LOL, Drum corps exists for this.. stop trying to be a drum corps. Ideal scenario: Band director (+school staff) produces the program. School staff = teaching classes. It'll never happen, but it should. Then, we'd really see evolution of the activity beyond the carbon copies that are out there today. Again, well performed, but uninteresting and pre-packaged. Purchased. A reality... but somewhat unethical, in my opinion. If you listen to Vento actually talk, she even says it is possible to "look expensive" without actually being so. We know that is true. Just takes some more thinking and creativity. What is your solution? Ban Wes from designing? Put a cap on design fees? Come on that would get crazy. This is a national circuit, it would be impossible. Also we don't have caption awards so achieving the visual package does not require a nationally ranked guard or drumline- anything goes! |
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Post by bandgeek88 on Aug 21, 2023 12:44:53 GMT -6
I did some digging this weekend and put this together.
Wes Stats Since 2006...
5 BOA Grand National Champions
16 BOA Grand National Final Top 3 Finsihes
10 BOA Grand National Class Champions
23 Grand National Class Medalists
51 BOA Grand National Finalist Appearances
70 BOA Grand National Semi Finalist Appearances
I think he is worth what he is charging.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Aug 21, 2023 13:16:39 GMT -6
It is! I think that a list can be compiled without taking away from what students are doing. BUT, I think it would be interesting to see how many groups share the same teams or share teams with drum corps etc. The list would be, As the tik tokers say, "For educational purposes only." I don't want to take away from what the students are performing and how well they perform it on the field, especially in the upper tiers of BOA, however, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to pay for this year after year. Bringing in ringers to arrange or design shows, while a profitable business for the adults at the table, is like putting training wheels on a product for directors and internal staff who are apparently incapable of doing it themselves. It's corrupting the activity, in my opinion and is pricing out other quality ensembles who do not or cannot rely on the heavy six-figure training wheels approach every year. Not everyone is good at everything. I understand this. Some 'educators' make money on the side selling their 'expertise' to other programs and I don't decry their right to make a living. Some directors may be able to conduct a wind ensemble very well but couldn't tell you where the 50 yard line is on a football field, let alone demonstrate how to march. I get that. This isn't a class-warfare complaint.. but it's more that 'training wheels' design/crutches/whatever.... should be regulated while competing within Bands of America events. I'm not advocating for a 100% ban on outside help, but think it's important to limit the number of groups competing in said events that OUTSIDE individuals should work on. Everyone uses outside staff for something... even the schools who don't have a lot of money but have been successful or more successful in BOA. But I'm looking at a number of programs who made their names in the arena largely on the backs of designers who were purchased to produce the program. It's high school band.. Sad that so much is going into this aspect of 'music education'. Money can be better spent elsewhere.. LOL, Drum corps exists for this.. stop trying to be a drum corps. Ideal scenario: Band director (+school staff) produces the program. School staff = teaching classes. It'll never happen, but it should. Then, we'd really see evolution of the activity beyond the carbon copies that are out there today. Again, well performed, but uninteresting and pre-packaged. Purchased. A reality... but somewhat unethical, in my opinion. So your solution to shows being "uninteresting" is instead of having professionals that design shows as their way of life, instead have a band director that has a million of other things going in their world at all times, most of which have nothing to do with marching band, do it? I understand that at some high school bands, there might be a "school staff" that teaches the classes, but at most, including the vast majority of BOA programs (especially in Class A and AA) you have 1-2 people that direct all of the concert bands, the jazz bands, the winter programs, quite possibly the middle school bands, AND have to direct the marching band. So, on top of all of that, you think that those poor people who are already overwhelmed as it is should "produce the program?" I agree with you that the spending at the tip top has gotten out of hand, but I don't think your solution would help the situation. |
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