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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 25, 2023 7:56:39 GMT -6
OMEA Logan Elm 9/23 Class AA 1. Middletown 87.58 (I) 2. Olentangy Liberty 86.72 (I) Class A 1. Eastern Brown 85.2 (I) 2. Franklin Heights 84.28 (I) 3. Athens 78.68 (II) Class B 1. Gallia Academy 78.86 (II) 2. Liberty Benton 74.12 (II) 3. Circleville 72.54 (II) 4. Southeastern 72.06 (II) 5. Westfall 69.6 (III) Ex. Logan Elm (I) Class C 1. Valley 76.02 (II) 2. Fort Frye 65.16 (III) Most of these scores (especially at the top end) are about 1-2 points higher than I would have assigned. Ah, so they're still doing that. That may be a useful data point for comparing OMEA scores to other circuits. And that is helpful context for the previous week's BOA results.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 25, 2023 16:57:40 GMT -6
OMEA has posted the first iteration of their state finals schedule, accessible from any of the 4 entries for OMEA SMBF on the website calendar. It does not yet include any of the qualifiers from yesterday. I see that Berne Union will be attending state in class AA again. I see that it has 121 performance slots. I wonder whether the final number will be more or less than that. Of those 121 slots, 32 were filled, with another 15 bands qualifying for the first time this past weekend. An additional 8 bands qualified on the first and/or second weekend but had yet to sign up for state finals. Presumably most of them will do so. So after three out of seven weeks, there have been 55 qualifiers. (A few bands have yet to appear at their first OMEA competition this year.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Meanwhile, Saturday's results at the BOA show in Obetz may give some indications as to what will happen at the Buckeye invitational on Oct. 14th. None of the Class C, B, or A bands appears likely to be challenging for the top scores (based on the scores so far, Teays Valley and Franklin Heights will probably score in the mid-high 80s that day; Boyle County, KY in Class A may be a wild card). Here are the twelve Class AA bands competing that day (in performance order, starting at 5:15 p.m. and ending at 9:00 p.m., but with an interval of three festival bands halfway through) showing all results known to date. As a very rough guide, you can subtract 20 from an OMEA score to get the BOA / MSBA score: Kettering Fairmont - - - (65.2 - MSBA 9/9; 69.9 - MSBA 9/16) Northmont - - - (62.2 - MSBA 9/9) Troy - - - (II - OMEA 9/9; 79.1 - OMEA 9/16) Worthington Kilbourne - - - (86.8 - OMEA 9/16; 70.4 - BOA 9/23 ; 72.55 - BOA 9/23 [F])Avon - - - (81.37 - OMEA 9/16) Hilliard Davidson - - - (I - OMEA 9/9) Delaware Hayes - - - (80.3 - OMEA 9/16) Westland - - - (74.9 - OMEA 9/23) Fairfield - - - (64.1 - MSBA 9/9; 84.8 - OMEA 9/16; 67.6 - BOA 9/23) Middletown - - - (79.6 - OMEA 9/16; 87.58 - OMEA 9/23) Beavercreek - - - (83.2 - OMEA 9/9; 71.125 - BOA 9/23; 70.7 - BOA 9/23) Dublin Coffman - - - (68.2 - BOA 9/23; 69.15 - BOA 9/23 [F]) With that information, I shall hazard a prediction:
1. Worthington Kilbourne 94.9 2. Beavercreek 94.2 3. Dublin Coffman 93.3 4. Kettering Fairmont 93.2 5. Middletown 91.4 6. Fairfield 91.3 7. Northmont 90.1 8. Hilliard Davidson 88.0 9. Avon 87.4 10. Delaware Hayes 86.3 11. Troy 85.1 12. Westland 79.1
I look forward to this guess being very wrong!
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Post by neop on Sept 25, 2023 21:16:01 GMT -6
The state schedule was updated with qualifiers from this weekend. Medina and Amherst Steele drew VERY rough slots, at 9:45 PM and 10:00 PM respectively. These schools are 2.5 to 3 hours from Hilliard Bradley by bus, and awards are at 10:45 PM. Long night. One I am obligated to attend, as well. I would’ve watched that late on the livestream, but the drive home will be rough.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Sept 26, 2023 7:41:55 GMT -6
OMEA has posted the first iteration of their state finals schedule, accessible from any of the 4 entries for OMEA SMBF on the website calendar. It does not yet include any of the qualifiers from yesterday. I see that Berne Union will be attending state in class AA again. Also, checking schedules for 10/7, I see "River Valley" from Bidwell on the schedule at Teays Valley. Anyone know about this band? Also also, I see that Sycamore has a pretty tight schedule on this day. 5:15 PM at Kettering Fairmont, then 6:45 PM at Loveland. Looks like instead of going on first at Kettering, and last at Loveland, Sycamore has flipped those two and are now attending Loveland first. They perform there at 5:45 and now at 8:45 at Kettering. That's definitely a more realistic double-header. I assume they will be going for Ratings Only at both events, but the schedule does not specify that.
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Post by neop on Sept 26, 2023 20:37:13 GMT -6
Not sure if this would be interesting to anyone, but as some may know, Ohio has a computer points ranking system for high school football to determine who makes the playoffs. I thought I'd take the same math (with some tweaks) to try and calculate the most successful bands in Ohio based off of which bands they beat, which bands those bands beat, and the final score the band got during the season. It also scales a bit to account for bands who competed many times (Dawson-Bryant ) and those who competed only once or twice. This is what it spat out. Does this look remotely reasonable? I'm going to try doing this with the 2023 season as it continues, so feedback would be helpful! Remember, this was for 2022, and just in OMEA. It might also serve as a case study into what styles of band/show OMEA judges lean into a bit more than others. Overall OMEA Top 10/Class AA Top 10 because they're all AA lol1. Beavercreek 2. Lakota West 3. Grove City ( probably the most controversial one) 4. Miamisburg 5. Kings 6. Lakota East 7. Hilliard Bradley 8. Hilliard Darby 9. Dublin Jerome 10. Dublin Coffman Class A Top 51. Norton 2. Teays Valley 3. Copley 4. Louisville 5. Tri-Valley (if you're wondering, Berne Union would've been number 1 here, but I have them in AA as that's what they competed in at state) Class B Top 51. Finneytown 2. South Point 3. Van Buren 4. Ridgewood 5. Versailles Class C Top 51. Dawson-Bryant 2. Eastern Brown 3. Belpre 4. Chesapeake 5. Lynchburg-Clay
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Post by cheesemcdiddlesworth on Sept 26, 2023 20:49:01 GMT -6
Not sure if this would be interesting to anyone, but as some may know, Ohio has a computer points ranking system for high school football to determine who makes the playoffs. I thought I'd take the same math (with some tweaks) to try and calculate the most successful bands in Ohio based off of which bands they beat, which bands those bands beat, and the final score the band got during the season. It also scales a bit to account for bands who competed many times (Dawson-Bryant ) and those who competed only once or twice. This is what it spat out. Does this look remotely reasonable? I'm going to try doing this with the 2023 season as it continues, so feedback would be helpful! Remember, this was for 2022, and just in OMEA. It might also serve as a case study into what styles of band/show OMEA judges lean into a bit more than others. Overall OMEA Top 10/Class AA Top 10 because they're all AA lol1. Beavercreek 2. Lakota West 3. Grove City ( probably the most controversial one) 4. Miamisburg 5. Kings 6. Lakota East 7. Hilliard Bradley 8. Hilliard Darby 9. Dublin Jerome 10. Dublin Coffman Class A Top 51. Norton 2. Teays Valley 3. Copley 4. Louisville 5. Tri-Valley (if you're wondering, Berne Union would've been number 1 here, but I have them in AA as that's what they competed in at state) Class B Top 51. Finneytown 2. South Point 3. Van Buren 4. Ridgewood 5. Versailles Class C Top 51. Dawson-Bryant 2. Eastern Brown 3. Belpre 4. Chesapeake 5. Lynchburg-Clay Why not include MSBA data too? Would improve the accuracy.
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Post by neop on Sept 26, 2023 20:50:59 GMT -6
Not sure if this would be interesting to anyone, but as some may know, Ohio has a computer points ranking system for high school football to determine who makes the playoffs. I thought I'd take the same math (with some tweaks) to try and calculate the most successful bands in Ohio based off of which bands they beat, which bands those bands beat, and the final score the band got during the season. It also scales a bit to account for bands who competed many times (Dawson-Bryant ) and those who competed only once or twice. This is what it spat out. Does this look remotely reasonable? I'm going to try doing this with the 2023 season as it continues, so feedback would be helpful! Remember, this was for 2022, and just in OMEA. It might also serve as a case study into what styles of band/show OMEA judges lean into a bit more than others. Overall OMEA Top 10/Class AA Top 10 because they're all AA lol1. Beavercreek 2. Lakota West 3. Grove City ( probably the most controversial one) 4. Miamisburg 5. Kings 6. Lakota East 7. Hilliard Bradley 8. Hilliard Darby 9. Dublin Jerome 10. Dublin Coffman Class A Top 51. Norton 2. Teays Valley 3. Copley 4. Louisville 5. Tri-Valley (if you're wondering, Berne Union would've been number 1 here, but I have them in AA as that's what they competed in at state) Class B Top 51. Finneytown 2. South Point 3. Van Buren 4. Ridgewood 5. Versailles Class C Top 51. Dawson-Bryant 2. Eastern Brown 3. Belpre 4. Chesapeake 5. Lynchburg-Clay Why not include MSBA data too? Would improve the accuracy. That was my next idea, but to avoid opening up a can of worms at 10:30 pm I stopped programming after doing OMEA maybe later
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 26, 2023 22:02:12 GMT -6
Not sure if this would be interesting to anyone, but as some may know, Ohio has a computer points ranking system for high school football to determine who makes the playoffs. I thought I'd take the same math (with some tweaks) to try and calculate the most successful bands in Ohio based off of which bands they beat, which bands those bands beat, and the final score the band got during the season. It also scales a bit to account for bands who competed many times (Dawson-Bryant ) and those who competed only once or twice. This is what it spat out. Does this look remotely reasonable? I'm going to try doing this with the 2023 season as it continues, so feedback would be helpful! Remember, this was for 2022, and just in OMEA. It might also serve as a case study into what styles of band/show OMEA judges lean into a bit more than others. [...] What fun! I tried something like this back in 2014 but gave up due to lack of data and my own math limitations. (Never took any statistics and couldn't get through differential equations.) It's great to see a report from someone who knows what they're doing. These results seem entirely reasonable, at least given the material you have to work with. In Class C, I think Eastern Brown was the inarguable top band in 2022, which I think is reflected by the fact that they chose to compete in (and win) Class A last Saturday. (Of course, that sets aside the fact that Berne Union is actually a Class C-sized school.) In Class B, the bands you list would be five of my top six, although I would Arcanum in there and would have had Van Buren in second place. In Class A, I would add Cloverleaf and move out Tri-Valley or Copley. In Class AA, I was surprised to see Lakota West here, having forgotten that they competed at the Hamilton OMEA show on 9/24/2022. (Defeating Forest Hills, Springboro, and Walnut Hills was enough to get them to second place?) Grove City in third place seems fine to me. The only band to beat them head-to-head was Beavercreek, and they beat Kings, Hilliard Darby, Dublin Jerome, and Dublin Coffman. And for what it's worth, I saw Grove City and Miamisburg at two different OMEA shows on the same day, and I thought they were basically tied, and when I saw them a week apart at OMEA state finals, I thought Grove City was a smidge better.
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Post by neop on Sept 26, 2023 23:35:21 GMT -6
I'm a sleepless maniac so I added MSBA data. I also went through enrollment data for all of these schools to see what they'd be classed as in OMEA.
Overall Ohio Top 25 2022 1. William Mason 2. Beavercreek 3. Lakota West 4. Centerville 5. Grove City 6. West Clermont 7. Forest Hills 8. Kings 9. Lakota East 10. Milford 11. Hilliard Bradley 12. Miamisburg 13. Hilliard Darby 14. Dublin Coffman 15. Dublin Jerome 16. Hilliard Davidson 17. Amherst Steele 18. Brunswick 19. Fairfield 20. Berne Union 21. Norton 22. Finneytown 23. Worthington Kilbourne 24. Northmont 25. Licking Heights
Class A Top 5 1. Norton 2. Teays Valley 3. Bellbrook 4. Copley 5. Louisville
Class B Top 5 1. Finneytown 2. Archbishop Alter 3. South Point 4. Van Buren 5. Ridgewood
Class C Top 5 1. Dawson-Bryant 2. Eastern Brown 3. Greenon 4. Belpre 5. Chesapeake
I can think of multiple instances above that make me queasy, but for the most part it seems generally reasonable. Needs more tweaking.
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Post by rlrrll on Sept 27, 2023 7:57:55 GMT -6
I'm a sleepless maniac so I added MSBA data. I also went through enrollment data for all of these schools to see what they'd be classed as in OMEA. Overall Ohio Top 25 20221. William Mason 2. Beavercreek 3. Lakota West 4. Centerville 5. Grove City 6. West Clermont 7. Forest Hills 8. Kings 9. Lakota East 10. Milford 11. Hilliard Bradley 12. Miamisburg 13. Hilliard Darby 14. Dublin Coffman 15. Dublin Jerome 16. Hilliard Davidson 17. Amherst Steele 18. Brunswick 19. Fairfield 20. Berne Union 21. Norton 22. Finneytown 23. Worthington Kilbourne 24. Northmont 25. Licking Heights That’s quite an interesting top 25 ranking. Almost like names drawn from a hat.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 27, 2023 8:28:54 GMT -6
I'm a sleepless maniac so I added MSBA data. I also went through enrollment data for all of these schools to see what they'd be classed as in OMEA. Overall Ohio Top 25 20221. William Mason 2. Beavercreek 3. Lakota West 4. Centerville 5. Grove City 6. West Clermont 7. Forest Hills 8. Kings 9. Lakota East 10. Milford 11. Hilliard Bradley 12. Miamisburg 13. Hilliard Darby 14. Dublin Coffman 15. Dublin Jerome 16. Hilliard Davidson 17. Amherst Steele 18. Brunswick 19. Fairfield 20. Berne Union 21. Norton 22. Finneytown 23. Worthington Kilbourne 24. Northmont 25. Licking Heights [...]I can think of multiple instances above that make me queasy, but for the most part it seems generally reasonable. Needs more tweaking. What makes me nervous is that my personal top 25 for 2022 aligns pretty closely with the calculated top 25. Are my opinions too "corporate," as it were? The one big name I think is missing from this list is Kettering Fairmont.
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Post by flagdodger on Sept 27, 2023 9:07:14 GMT -6
I'm a sleepless maniac so I added MSBA data. I also went through enrollment data for all of these schools to see what they'd be classed as in OMEA. Overall Ohio Top 25 20221. William Mason 2. Beavercreek 3. Lakota West 4. Centerville 5. Grove City 6. West Clermont 7. Forest Hills 8. Kings 9. Lakota East 10. Milford 11. Hilliard Bradley 12. Miamisburg 13. Hilliard Darby 14. Dublin Coffman 15. Dublin Jerome 16. Hilliard Davidson 17. Amherst Steele 18. Brunswick 19. Fairfield 20. Berne Union 21. Norton 22. Finneytown 23. Worthington Kilbourne 24. Northmont 25. Licking Heights Class A Top 51. Norton 2. Teays Valley 3. Bellbrook 4. Copley 5. Louisville Class B Top 51. Finneytown 2. Archbishop Alter 3. South Point 4. Van Buren 5. Ridgewood Class C Top 51. Dawson-Bryant 2. Eastern Brown 3. Greenon 4. Belpre 5. Chesapeake I can think of multiple instances above that make me queasy, but for the most part it seems generally reasonable. Needs more tweaking. Hmmm, well props to you for going through so much data! I will say there are quite a few surprises in here that make me a tad bit confused, but I haven’t gone through myself to see who beat who throughout the OMEA season. If you don’t mind me asking, who had West Clermont beaten in OMEA to be so high up, or had they had an outlying score at a competition that put them above the rest of the group? (Same with Kings, Beavercreek) Did any of the Hilliards / Dublins lose to certain groups which put them lower in the statistical rankings? Also, it is weird seeing Lakota East so low knowing they’ve gone undefeated in every OMEA competition they’ve attended in recent memory (excluding the 2016 Ohio State Invitational), were the bands they had beaten in their 2022 OMEA comps not as good as the others that the top 8 had beaten? Also feel like Miamisburg and Fairfield are low themselves even if this is just a statistical ranking HOWEVER they very easily could just be where they’re at since I haven’t looked through every single score / who exactly they had gone up against. I know this is all stats and just for fun but I’d love to see the scores and competition wins that decided some of these placements! Might be going through what all had been posted last year to find some answers for some of my questions lol
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Post by neop on Sept 27, 2023 11:13:09 GMT -6
Hmmm, well props to you for going through so much data! I will say there are quite a few surprises in here that make me a tad bit confused, but I haven’t gone through myself to see who beat who throughout the OMEA season. If you don’t mind me asking, who had West Clermont beaten in OMEA to be so high up, or had they had an outlying score at a competition that put them above the rest of the group? (Same with Kings, Beavercreek) Did any of the Hilliards / Dublins lose to certain groups which put them lower in the statistical rankings? Also, it is weird seeing Lakota East so low knowing they’ve gone undefeated in every OMEA competition they’ve attended in recent memory (excluding the 2016 Ohio State Invitational), were the bands they had beaten in their 2022 OMEA comps not as good as the others that the top 8 had beaten? Also feel like Miamisburg and Fairfield are low themselves even if this is just a statistical ranking HOWEVER they very easily could just be where they’re at since I haven’t looked through every single score / who exactly they had gone up against. I know this is all stats and just for fun but I’d love to see the scores and competition wins that decided some of these placements! Might be going through what all had been posted last year to find some answers for some of my questions lol I bet you anything Beavercreek is high up because of them winning the Buckeye Invitational last year. If I had to guess, I would think West Clermont was helped by the Mason MSBA show. Lakota East was probably hurt by having relatively weaker opponents at their OMEA shows. This system has an emphasis on who you beat, not just your score. I tried to account for that by factoring in scores more heavily, but OMEA almost feels like it has a crunch at around 90 points in which upward progression slows massively. I think Fairfield and Miamisburg are a little low, but are near the right place. Also, all of this would probably be more accurate if I had tried to factor in 2021 or even 2019. Wonder if adding in BOA would help too? Admittedly, this system was not designed for competitions with more than two competitors (like football), I’m just trying to adapt it to that. There are probably better ways to do it. I think these rankings are actually a pretty good representation of “Who had the most impressive 2022 season?” rather than “Who was THE BEST band in 2022?”
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Post by neop on Sept 27, 2023 11:15:59 GMT -6
What makes me nervous is that my personal top 25 for 2022 aligns pretty closely with the calculated top 25. Are my opinions too "corporate," as it were? The one big name I think is missing from this list is Kettering Fairmont. Kettering Fairmont is hurt by their two showings at MSBA Kings and OMEA Wilmington. Try comparing those results to who you see at the bottom of the top 25. I have seen them having better seasons than the one they had last year.
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Post by neop on Sept 27, 2023 11:18:26 GMT -6
That’s quite an interesting top 25 ranking. Almost like names drawn from a hat. Hahaha, it’s at least within a good stone’s throw of reality, which makes me think I’m onto something. Like I said before, this opens up a whole can of worms of what circuits should be included, weighted differently, etc. that could get political. I plan to keep playing with this and seeing if I can produce something a lot better.
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Post by rlrrll on Sept 27, 2023 11:55:14 GMT -6
That’s quite an interesting top 25 ranking. Almost like names drawn from a hat. Hahaha, it’s at least within a good stone’s throw of reality, which makes me think I’m onto something. Like I said before, this opens up a whole can of worms of what circuits should be included, weighted differently, etc. that could get political. I plan to keep playing with this and seeing if I can produce something a lot better. Or OMEA judging is a trainwreck where they throw numbers just to see what sticks and bigger bands go to lesser shows against lesser competition to boost their numbers.
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Post by flagdodger on Sept 27, 2023 14:32:46 GMT -6
Hmmm, well props to you for going through so much data! I will say there are quite a few surprises in here that make me a tad bit confused, but I haven’t gone through myself to see who beat who throughout the OMEA season. If you don’t mind me asking, who had West Clermont beaten in OMEA to be so high up, or had they had an outlying score at a competition that put them above the rest of the group? (Same with Kings, Beavercreek) Did any of the Hilliards / Dublins lose to certain groups which put them lower in the statistical rankings? Also, it is weird seeing Lakota East so low knowing they’ve gone undefeated in every OMEA competition they’ve attended in recent memory (excluding the 2016 Ohio State Invitational), were the bands they had beaten in their 2022 OMEA comps not as good as the others that the top 8 had beaten? Also feel like Miamisburg and Fairfield are low themselves even if this is just a statistical ranking HOWEVER they very easily could just be where they’re at since I haven’t looked through every single score / who exactly they had gone up against. I know this is all stats and just for fun but I’d love to see the scores and competition wins that decided some of these placements! Might be going through what all had been posted last year to find some answers for some of my questions lol I bet you anything Beavercreek is high up because of them winning the Buckeye Invitational last year. If I had to guess, I would think West Clermont was helped by the Mason MSBA show. Lakota East was probably hurt by having relatively weaker opponents at their OMEA shows. This system has an emphasis on who you beat, not just your score. I tried to account for that by factoring in scores more heavily, but OMEA almost feels like it has a crunch at around 90 points in which upward progression slows massively. I think Fairfield and Miamisburg are a little low, but are near the right place. Also, all of this would probably be more accurate if I had tried to factor in 2021 or even 2019. Wonder if adding in BOA would help too? Admittedly, this system was not designed for competitions with more than two competitors (like football), I’m just trying to adapt it to that. There are probably better ways to do it. I think these rankings are actually a pretty good representation of “Who had the most impressive 2022 season?” rather than “Who was THE BEST band in 2022?” Ahhh, that checks out!
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 27, 2023 16:56:47 GMT -6
What makes me nervous is that my personal top 25 for 2022 aligns pretty closely with the calculated top 25. Are my opinions too "corporate," as it were? The one big name I think is missing from this list is Kettering Fairmont. Kettering Fairmont is hurt by their two showings at MSBA Kings and OMEA Wilmington. Try comparing those results to who you see at the bottom of the top 25. I have seen them having better seasons than the one they had last year. Totally fair. In a survey based on OMEA and MSBA results, it's completely understandable that Kettering wouldn't fare so well in 2022 (particularly if, as you indicate, your results measure "'Who had the most impressive 2022 season?' rather than 'Who was the best band in 2022?'"), and it's true that even factoring in BOA, Kettering arguably did fare a bit worse last year than is their wont. At the BOA Louisville Regional Prelims on 10/1/2022, they placed 16th overall (out of 30 bands) and scored 70.05. Among Ohio bands, that put them behind Centerville (3rd,77.9) and Lakota East (4th, 76.5) but ahead of Bellbrook (21st, 66.325) and Oak Hills (27th, 63.4). However, at the BOA Indianapolis Super Regional on 10/21-22/2022, Kettering placed 20th (out of 84 bands) with a score of 81.2, behind William Mason (4th, 89.5) and Centerville (14th, 82.1) but ahead of Beavercreek (24th, 80.375) and Springboro (43rd, 71.825). (I had Kettering as 7th in Ohio last year.) And of course, for all we know, Sycamore might be putting on a better show this year than any of them, but the numbers will never reflect that. Which is to say: just because a band chooses not to compete doesn't mean their performance isn't top notch. It's just that nobody is measuring it. To borrow from the title this year's show from Goshen (IN): "If a tree falls..." But you can't work with data you don't have. All that said, I'm not sure I can get entirely on board with rlrrll's assessment that: (1) "OMEA judging is a trainwreck where they throw numbers just to see what sticks"; and (2) "bigger bands go to lesser shows against lesser competition to boost their numbers." Regarding the first point, there are better judges and worse judges in OMEA as in any circuit. And while a good judge can have a bad day and (probably less often) a bad judge can have a good day, I do know for certain that OMEA does try to keep an eye out for judging anomalies, and in my opinion, OMEA's judging is fairly consistent. (Perhaps too much so.) And as concerns the second point, what counts as a greater or a lesser show? Is there a list? Do directors and judges say things like "Don't go to the Maysville competition if you want to be taken seriously"? (I mean, how can a serious show include an ice cream eating competition?) Is it an urban-rural thing? Are the lesser shows the ones held in the sticks? (Or the "styks," as they apparently spell it in Westfield, IN?) Did Teays Valley, for example, travel down to Portsmouth hoping to score an easy win against some tiny Scioto County schools only to be surprised when Russell Independent of Kentucky showed up to best them by two tenths of a point? Or if it's a matter of "greater" or "lesser" being the result of the competitors present, how would the planning work? Does Dublin Coffman sign up for a show, learn that Grove City is also going to be there, and then withdraw to go to a different show? Isn't show selection largely a matter of what's within a reasonable drive on the weekends a band is able to travel? They have to schedule around homecoming and other school affairs. For that matter, there are a number of OMEA bands who have yet to compete at all this year. (I think there's even a BOA/MSBA band or two that have yet to do so.) If that's your model -- if you don't go to contests until the last week of September or even October -- then your options are further limited. And sometimes there are even more mundane limitations. Last Saturday, Valley H.S., a Class C band, performed last at the Logan Elm show, after three Class A bands and two Class AA bands. I asked some Valley folks why that happened. They explained that all their buses were tied up earlier in the day.
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Post by neop on Sept 27, 2023 17:07:10 GMT -6
Do directors and judges say things like "Don't go to the Maysville competition if you want to be taken seriously"? (I mean, how can a serious show include an ice cream eating competition?) ...do I need to go to the Maysville competition?
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Post by bandirectorman on Sept 27, 2023 17:17:55 GMT -6
Kettering Fairmont is hurt by their two showings at MSBA Kings and OMEA Wilmington. Try comparing those results to who you see at the bottom of the top 25. I have seen them having better seasons than the one they had last year. Totally fair. In a survey based on OMEA and MSBA results, it's completely understandable that Kettering wouldn't fare so well in 2022 (particularly if, as you indicate, your results measure "'Who had the most impressive 2022 season?' rather than 'Who was the best band in 2022?'"), and it's true that even factoring in BOA, Kettering arguably did fare a bit worse last year than is their wont. At the BOA Louisville Regional Prelims on 10/1/2022, they placed 16th overall (out of 30 bands) and scored 70.05. Among Ohio bands, that put them behind Centerville (3rd,77.9) and Lakota East (4th, 76.5) but ahead of Bellbrook (21st, 66.325) and Oak Hills (27th, 63.4). However, at the BOA Indianapolis Super Regional on 10/21-22/2022, Kettering placed 20th (out of 84 bands) with a score of 81.2, behind William Mason (4th, 89.5) and Centerville (14th, 82.1) but ahead of Beavercreek (24th, 80.375) and Springboro (43rd, 71.825). (I had Kettering as 7th in Ohio last year.) And of course, for all we know, Sycamore might be putting on a better show this year than any of them, but the numbers will never reflect that. Which is to say: just because a band chooses not to compete doesn't mean their performance isn't top notch. It's just that nobody is measuring it. To borrow from the title this year's show from Goshen (IN): "If a tree falls..." But you can't work with data you don't have. All that said, I'm not sure I can get entirely on board with rlrrll's assessment that: (1) "OMEA judging is a trainwreck where they throw numbers just to see what sticks"; and (2) "bigger bands go to lesser shows against lesser competition to boost their numbers." Regarding the first point, there are better judges and worse judges in OMEA as in any circuit. And while a good judge can have a bad day and (probably less often) a bad judge can have a good day, I do know for certain that OMEA does try to keep an eye out for judging anomalies, and in my opinion, OMEA's judging is fairly consistent. (Perhaps too much so.) And as concerns the second point, what counts as a greater or a lesser show? Is there a list? Do directors and judges say things like "Don't go to the Maysville competition if you want to be taken seriously"? (I mean, how can a serious show include an ice cream eating competition?) Is it an urban-rural thing? Are the lesser shows the ones held in the sticks? (Or the "styks," as they apparently spell it in Westfield, IN?) Did Teays Valley, for example, travel down to Portsmouth hoping to score an easy win against some tiny Scioto County schools only to be surprised when Russell Independent of Kentucky showed up to best them by two tenths of a point? Or if it's a matter of "greater" or "lesser" being the result of the competitors present, how would the planning work? Does Dublin Coffman sign up for a show, learn that Grove City is also going to be there, and then withdraw to go to a different show? Isn't show selection largely a matter of what's within a reasonable drive on the weekends a band is able to travel? They have to schedule around homecoming and other school affairs. For that matter, there are a number of OMEA bands who have yet to compete at all this year. (I think there's even a BOA/MSBA band or two that have yet to do so.) If that's your model -- if you don't go to contests until the last week of September or even October -- then your options are further limited. And sometimes there are even more mundane limitations. Last Saturday, Valley H.S., a Class C band, performed last at the Logan Elm show, after three Class A bands and two Class AA bands. I asked some Valley folks why that happened. They explained that all their buses were tied up earlier in the day. Most of high school adjudication is a train wreck and I say this as someone who is also responsible for the some of these issues. I don't believe that any band is compelled to attend these events or am I wrong? What value is there to competing in these circuits from a competitive POV? Why not just ditch the in-state contests and instead opt for other events in neighboring states? Why worry yourselves over local competition scores in circuits that few understand or even fewer care about?
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 27, 2023 17:39:43 GMT -6
[Six paragraphs of stuff, plus ice cream.] Most of high school adjudication is a train wreck and I say this as someone who is also responsible for the some of these issues. I don't believe that any band is compelled to attend these events or am I wrong? What value is there to competing in these circuits from a competitive POV? Why not just ditch the in-state contests and instead opt for other events in neighboring states? Why worry yourselves over local competition scores in circuits that few understand or even fewer care about? I'm not sure what you're asking. No band is compelled to compete at all. For those who do -- about 200 in Ohio this year -- why not just go to Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, Indiana, or Michigan? Cost probably is a key factor. Satisfaction with OMEA is likely another. And other circuits' inability to host 200 additional bands can't be ruled out! I really doubt BOA has the bandwidth to scale up by 30%. (And that's probably understating it. BOA says that 600 bands are participating in their events this year. But that includes bands only appearing at one event. Most Ohio bands appear in at least three contests. If OMEA and MSBA should suddenly disappear, that's 1,800+ performances that someone needs to manage.) In OMEA, I believe that once a band has registered for an event, there can be sanctions imposed if they don't appear (absent a good reason), because for the host bands, these events are fundraising opportunities that are ill-served if they don't get the expected attendance. At least, that's what I was told 30+ years ago. What do sanctions mean? Probably being banned from competitions in a subsequent year, or banned from qualifying from state. Are such rules still in place? Have such penalties ever been applied? On both counts, I have no idea.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 27, 2023 17:40:56 GMT -6
Do directors and judges say things like "Don't go to the Maysville competition if you want to be taken seriously"? (I mean, how can a serious show include an ice cream eating competition?) ...do I need to go to the Maysville competition? To be clear: the ice cream is on the field not in the stands. (While awards are being tabulated, one member from each band is invited to don a trash bag over their uniform and race to see who can finish a bowl of ice cream first.)
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Post by neop on Sept 27, 2023 18:03:43 GMT -6
...do I need to go to the Maysville competition? To be clear: the ice cream is on the field not in the stands. (While awards are being tabulated, one member from each band is invited to don a trash bag over their uniform and race to see who can finish a bowl of ice cream first.) I could still pass for a band member.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Sept 27, 2023 18:38:14 GMT -6
Hahaha, it’s at least within a good stone’s throw of reality, which makes me think I’m onto something. Like I said before, this opens up a whole can of worms of what circuits should be included, weighted differently, etc. that could get political. I plan to keep playing with this and seeing if I can produce something a lot better. Or OMEA judging is a trainwreck where they throw numbers just to see what sticks and bigger bands go to lesser shows against lesser competition to boost their numbers. Do you have any actual evidence to suggest the judges in OMEA aren’t qualified? I can basically guarantee you that if you compared the credentials of OMEA judges vs that of other circuits such as MSBA you’ll find that OMEA judges are significantly more qualified. Which is why, as NE Brigand suggested, OMEA shows are generally much more accurately judged as far as placements go. Your take is very outdated and inaccurate.
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Post by rlrrll on Sept 27, 2023 19:21:59 GMT -6
And as concerns the second point, what counts as a greater or a lesser show? Is there a list? Do directors and judges say things like "Don't go to the Maysville competition if you want to be taken seriously"? (I mean, how can a serious show include an ice cream eating competition?) Is it an urban-rural thing? Are the lesser shows the ones held in the sticks? (Or the "styks," as they apparently spell it in Westfield, IN?) Did Teays Valley, for example, travel down to Portsmouth hoping to score an easy win against some tiny Scioto County schools only to be surprised when Russell Independent of Kentucky showed up to best them by two tenths of a point? Or if it's a matter of "greater" or "lesser" being the result of the competitors present, how would the planning work? Does Dublin Coffman sign up for a show, learn that Grove City is also going to be there, and then withdraw to go to a different show? Isn't show selection largely a matter of what's within a reasonable drive on the weekends a band is able to travel? They have to schedule around homecoming and other school affairs. For that matter, there are a number of OMEA bands who have yet to compete at all this year. (I think there's even a BOA/MSBA band or two that have yet to do so.) If that's your model -- if you don't go to contests until the last week of September or even October -- then your options are further limited. And sometimes there are even more mundane limitations. Last Saturday, Valley H.S., a Class C band, performed last at the Logan Elm show, after three Class A bands and two Class AA bands. I asked some Valley folks why that happened. They explained that all their buses were tied up earlier in the day. Bands absolutely have gone outside of their normal region to go to a small OMEA show for competitive reasons. For example, if you are a Central Ohio band desperate to get your superior rating, you'll more than likely get it attending a show filled with small rural Ohio bands and fill up your trophy case in the process. I also believe there are bands who avoid going to the same show Grove City does because they would rather go somewhere else where they believe they can have competitive success.
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Post by rlrrll on Sept 27, 2023 19:31:02 GMT -6
Or OMEA judging is a trainwreck where they throw numbers just to see what sticks and bigger bands go to lesser shows against lesser competition to boost their numbers. Do you have any actual evidence to suggest the judges in OMEA aren’t qualified? I can basically guarantee you that if you compared the credentials of OMEA judges vs that of other circuits such as MSBA you’ll find that OMEA judges are significantly more qualified. Which is why, as NE Brigand suggested, OMEA shows are generally much more accurately judged as far as placements go. Your take is very outdated and inaccurate. More educated? OMEA can't get enough quality judges as it is. Their training system is not up the par with CSJA judges at a minimum and they certainly aren't on the same education level as BOA judges. The last I knew (this could have changed), OMEA had a requirement that you couldn't apply to be a judge unless you had letters of recommendation from existing OMEA judges. There could absolutely be qualified people to do the job but they can't get past the screening process because they aren't friends with people already in the system. I find "accurately judged" to be a blanket generalization. Do they have some good people who know what they are doing? Absolutely. Do they have judges stuck in old school mode and are untrained to judge modern content and concepts? Absolutely.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Sept 27, 2023 19:53:56 GMT -6
Do you have any actual evidence to suggest the judges in OMEA aren’t qualified? I can basically guarantee you that if you compared the credentials of OMEA judges vs that of other circuits such as MSBA you’ll find that OMEA judges are significantly more qualified. Which is why, as NE Brigand suggested, OMEA shows are generally much more accurately judged as far as placements go. Your take is very outdated and inaccurate. More educated? OMEA can't get enough quality judges as it is. Their training system is not up the par with CSJA judges at a minimum and they certainly aren't on the same education level as BOA judges. The last I knew (this could have changed), OMEA had a requirement that you couldn't apply to be a judge unless you had letters of recommendation from existing OMEA judges. There could absolutely be qualified people to do the job but they can't get past the screening process because they aren't friends with people already in the system. I find "accurately judged" to be a blanket generalization. Do they have some good people who know what they are doing? Absolutely. Do they have judges stuck in old school mode and are untrained to judge modern content and concepts? Absolutely. Again, outdated and inaccurate. I clicked on the first OMEA show for this weekend on the OMEA website, so a completely random show with only a few bands competing (Watkins Memorial). Here are the Music, General Effect, and Visual judges at that show: GE - Stephanie Smith, Band Director at Teays Valley GE - Steve Aylward, Band Director at Miamisburg Music - Bill Thomas, retired Band Director at Lakota East Music - Bob McNutt, retired Band Director at Central Crossing Visual - Philip Showalter, Band Director at Central Crossing That one random OMEA show has a better judging panel than any MSBA panel listed on the MSBA website outside of the non-competitive Northmont Premiere. Are there bad judges in OMEA? Of course, but there are bad judges in any circuit (including BOA).
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Sept 27, 2023 20:22:54 GMT -6
Or if it's a matter of "greater" or "lesser" being the result of the competitors present, how would the planning work? Does Dublin Coffman sign up for a show, learn that Grove City is also going to be there, and then withdraw to go to a different show? Isn't show selection largely a matter of what's within a reasonable drive on the weekends a band is able to travel? Bands absolutely have gone outside of their normal region to go to a small OMEA show for competitive reasons. For example, if you are a Central Ohio band desperate to get your superior rating, you'll more than likely get it attending a show filled with small rural Ohio bands and fill up your trophy case in the process. I also believe there are bands who avoid going to the same show Grove City does because they would rather go somewhere else where they believe they can have competitive success. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I would love to know a little more about the nitty gritty of how that works. Is there a portal where the directors can see who's already signed up for a given show before they make their final selection on where to go? Or do they have to ask? Does, for example, Hilliard Bradley's director reach out to the contest coordinator at, say, the Teays Valley show on Oct. 7th and say, "Hey, we're thinking about coming to your competition. Who else is there?" And then when they learn that Grove City is attending, they opt for another site? (That was of course a hypothetical with no basis in fact. Because Bradley will be at the Kettering show that day, where they'll have to contend against Miamisburg, who just beat them by 6 points at Obetz, as well as Forest Hills. One reason that Bradley won't be at Teays Valley is surely that Hilliard Darby will be there: I've never known the three Hilliard bands to compete against one another.)
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Post by rlrrll on Sept 27, 2023 20:31:42 GMT -6
More educated? OMEA can't get enough quality judges as it is. Their training system is not up the par with CSJA judges at a minimum and they certainly aren't on the same education level as BOA judges. The last I knew (this could have changed), OMEA had a requirement that you couldn't apply to be a judge unless you had letters of recommendation from existing OMEA judges. There could absolutely be qualified people to do the job but they can't get past the screening process because they aren't friends with people already in the system. I find "accurately judged" to be a blanket generalization. Do they have some good people who know what they are doing? Absolutely. Do they have judges stuck in old school mode and are untrained to judge modern content and concepts? Absolutely. Again, outdated and inaccurate. I clicked on the first OMEA show for this weekend on the OMEA website, so a completely random show with only a few bands competing (Watkins Memorial). Here are the Music, General Effect, and Visual judges at that show: GE - Stephanie Smith, Band Director at Teays Valley GE - Steve Aylward, Band Director at Miamisburg Music - Bill Thomas, retired Band Director at Lakota East Music - Bob McNutt, retired Band Director at Central Crossing Visual - Philip Showalter, Band Director at Central Crossing That one random OMEA show has a better judging panel than any MSBA panel listed on the MSBA website outside of the non-competitive Northmont Premiere. Are there bad judges in OMEA? Of course, but there are bad judges in any circuit (including BOA). That is your opinion. I may not share that opinion.
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Post by rlrrll on Sept 27, 2023 20:40:10 GMT -6
Bands absolutely have gone outside of their normal region to go to a small OMEA show for competitive reasons. For example, if you are a Central Ohio band desperate to get your superior rating, you'll more than likely get it attending a show filled with small rural Ohio bands and fill up your trophy case in the process. I also believe there are bands who avoid going to the same show Grove City does because they would rather go somewhere else where they believe they can have competitive success. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I would love to know a little more about the nitty gritty of how that works. Is there a portal where the directors can see who's already signed up for a given show before they make their final selection on where to go? Or do they have to ask? Does, for example, Hilliard Bradley's director reach out to the contest coordinator at, say, the Teays Valley show on Oct. 7th and say, "Hey, we're thinking about coming to your competition. Who else is there?" And then when they learn that Grove City is attending, they opt for another site? (That was of course a hypothetical with no basis in fact. Because Bradley will be at the Kettering show that day, where they'll have to contend against Miamisburg, who just beat them by 6 points at Obetz, as well as Forest Hills. One reason that Bradley won't be at Teays Valley is surely that Hilliard Darby will be there: I've never known the three Hilliard bands to compete against one another.) I think there is a portal where they can see. I honestly don't know because I've never been involved with show sign ups. I know people talk and tentative schedules get sent out in advance. It may not happen too much anymore but I'm pretty sure it was more prevalent in the past. As far as schools going outside their region to smaller competitions to get their ratings, I've absolutely seen it happen first hand over the last 20+ years whether the director would admit it or not. it looks good to school administrators when you bring home a load of trophies. When your choice is to be a little fish in a big pond or a big fish in a little pond, being a big fish in a little pond looks better for egos and school administration who just see awards.
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