ccbop
Senior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by ccbop on Nov 4, 2023 19:57:20 GMT -6
Does anyone have the 5A MSBA results
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Post by yayband914 on Nov 4, 2023 20:02:36 GMT -6
Does anyone have the 5A MSBA results 🫡 1. 91.500 - William Mason 2. 85.600 - Campbell County 3. 83.500 - Lakota West 4. 81.750 - Kettering Fairmont 5. 81.600 - Miamisburg 6. 77.700 - Milford 7. 76.950 - West Clermont 8. 76.300 - Fairfield 9. 72.300 - Lebanon
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Post by lostinthebands on Nov 4, 2023 21:44:16 GMT -6
Anyone have the full score recaps of MSBA Champs?
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 5, 2023 8:27:24 GMT -6
My yearly post again about the OMEA format as it stands today. Can we please change to a format similar to Indiana and the rest of the country for marching band. The OMEA system is well past its expiration date. It’s time to move beyond the “We got a I” format to a real competition. Let’s see the best of the best compete for a state title like all of the other competitive sports/clubs in high school. You can ask for it all you want, but I can tell you that it is never going to change. The membership of OMEA (meaning, the bands) have made this abundantly clear time and again. There is a reason that participation in OMEA events and state finals continues to dwarf MSBA participation, and it’s because that’s what the bands and the band directors want. It’s hard to explain, but it is a fully ingrained part of the culture. And say what you want, but it’s a whole lot easier for a band director to tell their principal (who probably knows nothing about band), that “We got a I at State” vs. “We came in 22nd out of 26 in Class AA.” A competitive championship event option exists for Ohio bands. Last night, 8 Ohio bands in the biggest class chose to attend it. Any band could have and only 8 did. The demand just simply isn’t there.
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Post by midwestfan on Nov 5, 2023 9:06:58 GMT -6
My yearly post again about the OMEA format as it stands today. Can we please change to a format similar to Indiana and the rest of the country for marching band. The OMEA system is well past its expiration date. It’s time to move beyond the “We got a I” format to a real competition. Let’s see the best of the best compete for a state title like all of the other competitive sports/clubs in high school. You can ask for it all you want, but I can tell you that it is never going to change. The membership of OMEA (meaning, the bands) have made this abundantly clear time and again. There is a reason that participation in OMEA events and state finals continues to dwarf MSBA participation, and it’s because that’s what the bands and the band directors want. It’s hard to explain, but it is a fully ingrained part of the culture. And say what you want, but it’s a whole lot easier for a band director to tell their principal (who probably knows nothing about band), that “We got a I at State” vs. “We came in 22nd out of 26 in Class AA.” A competitive championship event option exists for Ohio bands. Last night, 8 Ohio bands in the biggest class chose to attend it. Any band could have and only 8 did. The demand just simply isn’t there. I have to disagree. For many Directors there is a strong desire for something different. MSBA is not an option for many because of its entrenchment in SW Ohio. There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. OMEA leadership is convinced , self-righteously, they and them alone our safeguards of true education. They disparage, in the rules no less, MSBA, BOA and WGI. Directors are scared to rock the boat and are scolded when they try. I remember Directors as far back as the early 90s asking for the same thing. But they have no problem ensuring their fellow officers and OMEA leaders bands get their straight ones at States. Patting each other on the back, while OMEA only bands slip further into mediocrity!
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 5, 2023 9:15:34 GMT -6
You can ask for it all you want, but I can tell you that it is never going to change. The membership of OMEA (meaning, the bands) have made this abundantly clear time and again. There is a reason that participation in OMEA events and state finals continues to dwarf MSBA participation, and it’s because that’s what the bands and the band directors want. It’s hard to explain, but it is a fully ingrained part of the culture. And say what you want, but it’s a whole lot easier for a band director to tell their principal (who probably knows nothing about band), that “We got a I at State” vs. “We came in 22nd out of 26 in Class AA.” A competitive championship event option exists for Ohio bands. Last night, 8 Ohio bands in the biggest class chose to attend it. Any band could have and only 8 did. The demand just simply isn’t there. I have to disagree. For many Directors there is a strong desire for something different. MSBA is not an option for many because of its entrenchment in SW Ohio. There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. OMEA leadership is convinced , self-righteously, they and them alone our safeguards of true education. They disparage, in the rules no less, MSBA, BOA and WGI. Directors are scared to rock the boat and are scolded when they try. I remember Directors as far back as the early 90s asking for the same thing. But they have no problem ensuring their fellow officers and OMEA leaders bands get their straight ones at States. Patting each other on the back, while OMEA only bands slip further into mediocrity! Unfortunately there really isn’t any evidence to support what you’re saying. OMEA might be “entrenched” in SW Ohio because that’s the only place where bands will actually show up to events. Westerville North tried for years to have an MSBA show, and had to cancel it almost every year. One year they did run it, 2 Columbus-area bands attended. Bloom Carroll used to run an MSBA show, and no one came. The same with Westland. In fact, several events that used to be MSBA shows in SW Ohio now run OMEA events because more bands attend. I would invite you to take a look at the current OMEA leadership, especially when it comes to marching band. Your statements about them, at least those currently in charge, simply aren’t true.
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Post by Allohak on Nov 5, 2023 9:36:52 GMT -6
My yearly post again about the OMEA format as it stands today. Can we please change to a format similar to Indiana and the rest of the country for marching band. The OMEA system is well past its expiration date. It’s time to move beyond the “We got a I” format to a real competition. Let’s see the best of the best compete for a state title like all of the other competitive sports/clubs in high school. You can ask for it all you want, but I can tell you that it is never going to change. The membership of OMEA (meaning, the bands) have made this abundantly clear time and again. There is a reason that participation in OMEA events and state finals continues to dwarf MSBA participation, and it’s because that’s what the bands and the band directors want. It’s hard to explain, but it is a fully ingrained part of the culture. And say what you want, but it’s a whole lot easier for a band director to tell their principal (who probably knows nothing about band), that “We got a I at State” vs. “We came in 22nd out of 26 in Class AA.” A competitive championship event option exists for Ohio bands. Last night, 8 Ohio bands in the biggest class chose to attend it. Any band could have and only 8 did. The demand just simply isn’t there. This ain't it
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Post by Allohak on Nov 5, 2023 9:37:42 GMT -6
You can ask for it all you want, but I can tell you that it is never going to change. The membership of OMEA (meaning, the bands) have made this abundantly clear time and again. There is a reason that participation in OMEA events and state finals continues to dwarf MSBA participation, and it’s because that’s what the bands and the band directors want. It’s hard to explain, but it is a fully ingrained part of the culture. And say what you want, but it’s a whole lot easier for a band director to tell their principal (who probably knows nothing about band), that “We got a I at State” vs. “We came in 22nd out of 26 in Class AA.” A competitive championship event option exists for Ohio bands. Last night, 8 Ohio bands in the biggest class chose to attend it. Any band could have and only 8 did. The demand just simply isn’t there. I have to disagree. For many Directors there is a strong desire for something different. MSBA is not an option for many because of its entrenchment in SW Ohio. There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. OMEA leadership is convinced , self-righteously, they and them alone our safeguards of true education. They disparage, in the rules no less, MSBA, BOA and WGI. Directors are scared to rock the boat and are scolded when they try. I remember Directors as far back as the early 90s asking for the same thing. But they have no problem ensuring their fellow officers and OMEA leaders bands get their straight ones at States. Patting each other on the back, while OMEA only bands slip further into mediocrity! This is it
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 5, 2023 9:40:39 GMT -6
There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. Mason, Centerville, and now the Lakotas don't seem to have a problem with this. Notice that all of these programs are at or near the top of the Ohio heap in both Marching AND Concert band.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 5, 2023 9:42:55 GMT -6
I have to disagree. For many Directors there is a strong desire for something different. MSBA is not an option for many because of its entrenchment in SW Ohio. There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. OMEA leadership is convinced , self-righteously, they and them alone our safeguards of true education. They disparage, in the rules no less, MSBA, BOA and WGI. Directors are scared to rock the boat and are scolded when they try. I remember Directors as far back as the early 90s asking for the same thing. But they have no problem ensuring their fellow officers and OMEA leaders bands get their straight ones at States. Patting each other on the back, while OMEA only bands slip further into mediocrity! This is it No, it’s really not. It was back in the 90s, it’s simply not anymore. And mediocrity according to who?
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 5, 2023 9:45:04 GMT -6
There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. Mason, Centerville, and now the Lakotas don't seem to have a problem with this. Notice that all of these programs are at or near the top of the Ohio heap in both Marching AND Concert band. Exactly. Lakota West and Mason have had bands that play at the OMEA State Convention recently. West Clermont, a band that has literally never once competed in an OMEA Marching Band event since the schools merged and the new building was founded, had their Symphonic Band selected to play the OMEA conference this past February. It’s simply a fake narrative.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 5, 2023 9:58:46 GMT -6
Mason, Centerville, and now the Lakotas don't seem to have a problem with this. Notice that all of these programs are at or near the top of the Ohio heap in both Marching AND Concert band. Exactly. Lakota West and Mason have had bands that play at the OMEA State Convention recently. West Clermont, a band that has literally never once competed in an OMEA Marching Band event since the schools merged and the new building was founded, had their Symphonic Band selected to play the OMEA conference this past February. It’s simply a fake narrative. And for Mason, it wasn't even their top concert band that played there, IIRC from North Carolina.
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Post by midwestfan on Nov 5, 2023 9:59:06 GMT -6
No, it’s really not. It was back in the 90s, it’s simply not anymore. And mediocrity according to who? I disagree. Read all that I stated. Of course we can debate mediocrity, but bands that only do OMEA have a lower bar as far as what they attempt. We have seen currently bands who excel at OMEA but would not in other circuits. Yes there are still Directors who want a more traditional format. Who think the ratings only plan is inconsistent. Who have spoken up and been shot down. And yes, in the rule book, OMEA calls out the other circuits by name as something not to aspire to. You can debate whether there is rewarding of fellow leadership In adjudication, but I will stand by the statement that our system promotes mediocrity. Does a poor job of crediting design and a poor job at properly adjudicating overall effect. Look at the number of AA bands getting ones. There is still an inherent bias to size and class. Better than it was. But many bands move up a class to see their scores rise.
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Post by midwestfan on Nov 5, 2023 10:01:37 GMT -6
Exactly. Lakota West and Mason have had bands that play at the OMEA State Convention recently. West Clermont, a band that has literally never once competed in an OMEA Marching Band event since the schools merged and the new building was founded, had their Symphonic Band selected to play the OMEA conference this past February. It’s simply a fake narrative. And for Mason, it wasn't even their top concert band that played there, IIRC from North Carolina. Anecdotal evidence that some top programs have had success without OMEA participation is encouraging. Doesn’t change the fact that other Directors are apprehensive. Maybe what you state means that shouldn’t be but many still are.
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Post by Allohak on Nov 5, 2023 10:09:09 GMT -6
No, it’s really not. It was back in the 90s, it’s simply not anymore. And mediocrity according to who? I'll just put forth these simple facts: There's a reason the groups who have been long-standing OMEA marching participants and have dipped their toes into MSBA and seen even moderate success have not only stayed, but leaned more and more in that direction as the years have gone by. Those who tried and received a reality check didn't continue because they wanted their "superior" kudos instead of a score and placement more fitting their actual relative performance quality to those they competed against. And that scared others off from the seeing the same thing happen to them. So, why would you expect a Cleveland area group to travel 3+ hours to a MSBA show and get a 60 when they can drive 20 minutes and get told they're great? After it's all said and done, the truth of the matter is that the threshold for success in OMEA marching is extremely low. There are some quality groups who exclusively or primarily participate, but the vast majority of "state championship" qualifying groups (and even those who receive the highest rating at that event) would not qualify for class finals in MSBA.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 5, 2023 10:11:02 GMT -6
No, it’s really not. It was back in the 90s, it’s simply not anymore. And mediocrity according to who? I disagree. Read all that I stated. Of course we can debate mediocrity, but bands that only do OMEA have a lower bar as far as what they attempt. We have seen currently bands who excel at OMEA but would not in other circuits. Yes there are still Directors who want a more traditional format. Who think the ratings only plan is inconsistent. Who have spoken up and been shot down. And yes, in the rule book, OMEA calls out the other circuits by name as something not to aspire to. You can debate whether there is rewarding of fellow leadership In adjudication, but I will stand by the statement that our system promotes mediocrity. Does a poor job of crediting design and a poor job at properly adjudicating overall effect. Look at the number of AA bands getting ones. There is still an inherent bias to size and class. Better than it was. But many bands move up a class to see their scores rise. There is an inherent bias to size and class in every single band circuit anywhere. The last time a Class A band made BOA Finals was 2000. No AA band other than Tarpon or Marion has done it since the current format was created. Every band in the top 28 at San Antonio yesterday was in 3A or 4A. That issue is not unique to OMEA.
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Post by Allohak on Nov 5, 2023 10:11:38 GMT -6
No, it’s really not. It was back in the 90s, it’s simply not anymore. And mediocrity according to who? I disagree. Read all that I stated. Of course we can debate mediocrity, but bands that only do OMEA have a lower bar as far as what they attempt. We have seen currently bands who excel at OMEA but would not in other circuits. Yes there are still Directors who want a more traditional format. Who think the ratings only plan is inconsistent. Who have spoken up and been shot down. And yes, in the rule book, OMEA calls out the other circuits by name as something not to aspire to. You can debate whether there is rewarding of fellow leadership In adjudication, but I will stand by the statement that our system promotes mediocrity. Does a poor job of crediting design and a poor job at properly adjudicating overall effect. Look at the number of AA bands getting ones. There is still an inherent bias to size and class. Better than it was. But many bands move up a class to see their scores rise. Bolding for emphasis of serious truths.
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Post by rlrrll on Nov 5, 2023 10:37:17 GMT -6
I have to disagree. For many Directors there is a strong desire for something different. MSBA is not an option for many because of its entrenchment in SW Ohio. There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. OMEA leadership is convinced , self-righteously, they and them alone our safeguards of true education. They disparage, in the rules no less, MSBA, BOA and WGI. Directors are scared to rock the boat and are scolded when they try. I remember Directors as far back as the early 90s asking for the same thing. But they have no problem ensuring their fellow officers and OMEA leaders bands get their straight ones at States. Patting each other on the back, while OMEA only bands slip further into mediocrity! Unfortunately there really isn’t any evidence to support what you’re saying. OMEA might be “entrenched” in SW Ohio because that’s the only place where bands will actually show up to events. Westerville North tried for years to have an MSBA show, and had to cancel it almost every year. One year they did run it, 2 Columbus-area bands attended. Bloom Carroll used to run an MSBA show, and no one came. The same with Westland. In fact, several events that used to be MSBA shows in SW Ohio now run OMEA events because more bands attend. I would invite you to take a look at the current OMEA leadership, especially when it comes to marching band. Your statements about them, at least those currently in charge, simply aren’t true. Sometimes it’s hard to get people to try something different. Also, bands from SW Ohio won’t travel to Columbus. The state finals participation trophy system aside, OMEA’s issue is the judge training and how they view criteria. OMEA rewards big, safe, and clean. If you do all of those you get your ‘I’ and there is no incentive to do anything more than that. In the corporate world, that is a “meets expectations” in a yearly review. A large number of bands will “meet expectations” in OMEA finals. Gen you award so many bands a ‘I’ where and how do you identify your top performers? Who is exceeding expectations? Who is willing to do enough to be considered as “exceeding?”
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Post by rlrrll on Nov 5, 2023 10:51:54 GMT -6
An interesting proposition to discuss.
Band A loses to a larger band we’ll call “Band B” at an OMEA competition.
2 weeks later at a MSBA competition, Band A beats Band B by @5 points.
Neither show has major changes and both have 2 weeks of normal cleaning improvement.
Given the difference in judging criteria, who is right?
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Post by midwestfan on Nov 5, 2023 11:02:15 GMT -6
I disagree. Read all that I stated. Of course we can debate mediocrity, but bands that only do OMEA have a lower bar as far as what they attempt. We have seen currently bands who excel at OMEA but would not in other circuits. Yes there are still Directors who want a more traditional format. Who think the ratings only plan is inconsistent. Who have spoken up and been shot down. And yes, in the rule book, OMEA calls out the other circuits by name as something not to aspire to. You can debate whether there is rewarding of fellow leadership In adjudication, but I will stand by the statement that our system promotes mediocrity. Does a poor job of crediting design and a poor job at properly adjudicating overall effect. Look at the number of AA bands getting ones. There is still an inherent bias to size and class. Better than it was. But many bands move up a class to see their scores rise. There is an inherent bias to size and class in every single band circuit anywhere. The last time a Class A band made BOA Finals was 2000. No AA band other than Tarpon or Marion has done it since the current format was created. Every band in the top 28 at San Antonio yesterday was in 3A or 4A. That issue is not unique to OMEA. You are correct. In local shows those bands can compete within their class. From time to time a good B or A band has challenged for the overall recognition. But at State Finals everyone is lumped together and it is increasingly difficult for many smaller bands to achieve that Superior. A State Finals that has separate class champions and placements incentivizes that excelling within the class. At least in other circuits you can separate the classes at the end. OMEA you cannot.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 5, 2023 11:44:33 GMT -6
An interesting proposition to discuss. Band A loses to a larger band we’ll call “Band B” at an OMEA competition. 2 weeks later at a MSBA competition, Band A beats Band B by @5 points. Neither show has major changes and both have 2 weeks of normal cleaning improvement. Given the difference in judging criteria, who is right? There is no “right,” and this is not exclusive to OMEA. It happens in the same circuit and in every circuit. Last night at MSBA 5A, a band beat another band that beat them by 5 points (at an MSBA show) one week earlier.
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Post by oldtimer on Nov 5, 2023 11:53:30 GMT -6
The reason I bring this up is I think the current system takes away from the kids.
Every other competitive group/sport has a chance to bring home a state championship to their school. The band kids are simply not given that chance.
It’s not that complicated. Break the bands down in size and district and let them go at it over 3 weeks.
The model that works is already there in the State football playoff system.
Keep awarding Roman numerals for a system that is as outdated as they are.
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Post by midwestfan on Nov 5, 2023 12:07:03 GMT -6
I just want to say, I think this is a good debate. Thank you to those taking part in a constructive manner.
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Post by coop7 on Nov 5, 2023 15:09:43 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Grove City has ever done well at boa
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Post by yayband914 on Nov 5, 2023 15:21:13 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Grove City has ever done well at boa The last time they did BOA was in 2019 when they went to the Indy Super and placed 27th. Their music performance scores were enough to be in finals, and their GE scores were close, but their visual performance scores kept them out. www.hornrank.com/2019/10/indianapolis-prelims-oct-2526-2019.html?m=1
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Post by neop on Nov 5, 2023 15:21:55 GMT -6
Congratulations to the Crooksville band for earning a Superior rating at their first OMEA State Finals appearance!
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Post by neop on Nov 5, 2023 15:29:07 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Grove City has ever done well at boa The last time they did BOA was in 2019 when they went to the Indy Super and placed 27th. Their music performance scores were enough to be in finals, and their GE scores were close, but their visual performance scores kept them out. www.hornrank.com/2019/10/indianapolis-prelims-oct-2526-2019.html?m=1Other Grove City BOA appearances include a 4th place finish at the 2005 Pontiac regional, a 5th place finish at the 2002 Louisville regional (just 1.5 points behind eventual Grand National Finals 4th place Carmel, and nestled among the likes of Avon, Castle, and Lawrence North), and a 17th place finish at the 1994 Morgantown regional.
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Post by rlrrll on Nov 5, 2023 16:47:11 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Grove City has ever done well at boa The last time they did BOA was in 2019 when they went to the Indy Super and placed 27th. Their music performance scores were enough to be in finals, and their GE scores were close, but their visual performance scores kept them out. www.hornrank.com/2019/10/indianapolis-prelims-oct-2526-2019.html?m=1And that is the difference between BOA and OMEA.
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Post by neop on Nov 5, 2023 19:05:42 GMT -6
I would appreciate someone telling me Versailles' rating because I was across the room and I may have misheard it.
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Post by abtwitch on Nov 5, 2023 19:30:53 GMT -6
So is the MSBA website just down or is it just me? I've tried it a handful of times the past couple of days and it doesn't work.
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