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Post by neop on Nov 5, 2023 19:42:27 GMT -6
So is the MSBA website just down or is it just me? I've tried it a handful of times the past couple of days and it doesn't work. Just you, I can see it fine.
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Post by abtwitch on Nov 5, 2023 20:03:50 GMT -6
So is the MSBA website just down or is it just me? I've tried it a handful of times the past couple of days and it doesn't work. Just you, I can see it fine. Of course the first time after I ask about it, it starts working again! I love technology.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 5, 2023 21:30:45 GMT -6
So is the MSBA website just down or is it just me? I've tried it a handful of times the past couple of days and it doesn't work. It may just be you. I can get there and navigate. Recaps from the championship events aren't posted yet.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 0:09:34 GMT -6
First II for Crestwood since 2011, and first II for Cloverleaf since 2016. There were one or two other Crestwood shows in that period that I thought deserved a II but got a I. This time, the judges agreed with me. Cloverleaf was the only near-surprise for me on Saturday. I thought they deserved a I (my score: 81.5), but this Bluecoats-inspired "Heist" show was not their best work, and I wasn't shocked by the rating. On the opposite end, Ridgewood has not received a II (or lower, though they've never done so) at state since 2001. This year, they made finals the very last week of the season. Could an uncomfortably close call mean this is the year the streak ends? I hope not! Best of luck to them! Well, the worst has come to pass. Ridgewood received a II today for the first time since 2001. Lots and lots of IIs being given out today. I thought it was a super close call, but my score for Ridgewood was 79.9, i.e., just below the cut-off. Definitely their weakest show in many years. Congratulations to Belpre for earning their first Superior rating at state since 1998. Another close call: I scored Belpre at 79.8, just behind Ridgewood. Different judging panel. Cloverleaf and Ridgewood might have received I ratings had they gone on the second half of the day; Belpre might have received a II rating had they gone in the first half. I have to disagree. For many Directors there is a strong desire for something different. MSBA is not an option for many because of its entrenchment in SW Ohio. There is also a fear of alienating the powers that be that also control Large Group, S&E, etc. OMEA leadership is convinced , self-righteously, they and them alone our safeguards of true education. They disparage, in the rules no less, MSBA, BOA and WGI. Directors are scared to rock the boat and are scolded when they try. I remember Directors as far back as the early 90s asking for the same thing. But they have no problem ensuring their fellow officers and OMEA leaders bands get their straight ones at States. Patting each other on the back, while OMEA only bands slip further into mediocrity! Unfortunately there really isn’t any evidence to support what you’re saying. MSBA might be “entrenched” in SW Ohio because that’s the only place where bands will actually show up to events. Westerville North tried for years to have an MSBA show, and had to cancel it almost every year. One year they did run it, 2 Columbus-area bands attended. Bloom Carroll used to run an MSBA show, and no one came. The same with Westland. In fact, several events that used to be MSBA shows in SW Ohio now run OMEA events because more bands attend. I would invite you to take a look at the current OMEA leadership, especially when it comes to marching band. Your statements about them, at least those currently in charge, simply aren’t true. Yep. The director of Miamisburg regularly judges in OMEA, including a slot every year at state finals. (In fact, thanks to you having told us which got straight Is on the first weekend, we know that he gave a Superior rating in G.E. to North Royalton, which is probably the most non-BOA band in OMEA.) The assistant director at Beavercreek is in charge of OMEA marching band adjudication. And as you know, OMEA did just change their format in 2020, and one person who was involved in that discussion said that they were mindful of trends in other circuits including BOA. And looking at this the other way, the former director of Lexington, a regular OMEA band that only occasionally appeared in other circuits (and not for years), judges in MSBA. I spoke to him last year in the audience at an OMEA event the week after he judged at Mason's home show. I am sure there are active OMEA directors who do want the changes that midwestfan describes, but right now, they're probably a small minority. No, it’s really not. It was back in the 90s, it’s simply not anymore. And mediocrity according to who? I disagree. Read all that I stated. Of course we can debate mediocrity, but bands that only do OMEA have a lower bar as far as what they attempt. We have seen currently bands who excel at OMEA but would not in other circuits. Yes there are still Directors who want a more traditional format. Who think the ratings only plan is inconsistent. Who have spoken up and been shot down. And yes, in the rule book, OMEA calls out the other circuits by name as something not to aspire to. You can debate whether there is rewarding of fellow leadership In adjudication, but I will stand by the statement that our system promotes mediocrity. Does a poor job of crediting design and a poor job at properly adjudicating overall effect. Look at the number of AA bands getting ones. There is still an inherent bias to size and class. Better than it was. But many bands move up a class to see their scores rise. Does anyone have a link to or copy of the OMEA rule book? Anyway, OMEA rewards all styles. A regular OMEA adjudicator who did not judge today told me that Kings' performance was the one he or she liked most at state finals today. Kings, who just won their MSBA class the day before. On the other hand, Crooksville, a tiny band with no guard, got a Superior rating today. (Mind you, I had them just shy of that, at 79.5.) I think that fewer bands would participate in OMEA if they changed to a state championships format. Would that be a good thing? There is an inherent bias to size and class in every single band circuit anywhere. The last time a Class A band made BOA Finals was 2000. No AA band other than Tarpon or Marion has done it since the current format was created. Every band in the top 28 at San Antonio yesterday was in 3A or 4A. That issue is not unique to OMEA. You are correct. In local shows those bands can compete within their class. From time to time a good B or A band has challenged for the overall recognition. But at State Finals everyone is lumped together and it is increasingly difficult for many smaller bands to achieve that Superior. A State Finals that has separate class champions and placements incentivizes that excelling within the class. At least in other circuits you can separate the classes at the end. OMEA you cannot. In state finals, every band is judged independently only against the criteria and not against other bands. And the smaller class bands get to go first in each block, and there's a whole new panel of judges after every other block. I have attended every day of state finals since 2014, almost all day every day, plus the better part of two days in 2013 and a few portions in prior years, and have thus seen well over 1,200 state finals performances in person, and I can tell you that while I disagree with the judges from time to time in both directions, it's almost always a close call (there are maybe three or four bands every year out of 120+ where I more strenuously differ), and there is almost no correlation to size except for the fact that big schools generally produce better bands than small schools (which, as ohioguy2 points out, is also evident in BOA). The risk at state finals will generally increase for bands that go on later in a block, because while the judges are doing their best to take each performance as it comes, they are human, so if they see a small-school band give a tight show, they'll be a little less inclined to give latitude to the looser large-school band that goes on afterward. Thus a small school band who chooses to be judged up a class in state finals (e.g., Van Buren in Class A and Berne Union in Class AA) may suffer for following a true large school powerhouse. Does anyone know if Grove City has ever done well at boa I see that yayband914 has already responded with the facts. And I see that @neop has noted that Grove City did well in two BOA regionals earlier in the 2000s, particularly in music, but not so well in one 1990s appearance. Despite their visual "limitations" -- scare quotes because in my opinion, BOA exhibits *some* narrow-mindedness about what visual means (can you imagine a band like Crooksville without a guard would be savaged?) -- Grove City almost certainly would have made finals at any regular BOA regional in 2019. The individual music performance judge at the Indianapolis Super Regional even had them ahead of Carmel. But it's also worth noting that they radically changed their style in 2019. They have kept some elements of that style in the past three years. The short way to describe it is that they move while playing a lot less than they before that. Half as much. I timed it last year. I don't know whether they did that in 2019 thinking that's what would work in BOA or for other reasons. I wish they would go back to what they did in 2014-2018. And that is the difference between BOA and OMEA. Except, as I just explained above, it's really not. If anything, OMEA accepts more visual variety than BOA does. I would appreciate someone telling me Versailles' rating because I was across the room and I may have misheard it. II. I was pretty surprised, although not as surprised as by the II that Tippecanoe received.
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Post by lealumni03 on Nov 6, 2023 3:40:58 GMT -6
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 6, 2023 4:59:11 GMT -6
Here are the week 2 “straight 1s”:
Copley Nordonia Belpre St. Clairsville Willoughby South Berne Union Brunswick Miamisburg Kings Hamilton
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Post by rlrrll on Nov 6, 2023 10:35:58 GMT -6
And that is the difference between BOA and OMEA. Except, as I just explained above, it's really not. If anything, OMEA accepts more visual variety than BOA does. Accepts or rewards? OMEA has a wider demographic of bands that compete. rich schools, poor schools, large staffs taught by great directors, small staffs taught by poor educators and everything in between. Of course they accept more styles. My issue is that they reward them the same. A band could march simple drill, do it clean, and get a superior rating. A band could also present a grand visual program with extensive body work and extremely well coordinated music and visual design and still also get a superior rating. They are treated equally when they are not. Some bands settle for option A, take the easy way out and can be fat and happy. That will keep you successful in OMEA year after year. Other bands choose to be more elaborate and strive for a higher standard. OMEA rewards execution and not creativity. BOA also rewards cleanliness but also awards creativity and difficult much more than OMEA does. In the Grove City example from 2019, they always play wonderfully and basically cleanup every OMEA show they go to. In BOA they get eaten alive in visual because their color guard and visual design is secondary to the music is not on par with other comparable schools. I've been around this activity for a long time and nothing will convince me that OMEA rewards shows in the same way BOA does. OMEA doesn't provide the incentive for bands to push the envelope and excel above meeting a basic standard. IMO that is why bands in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and other states are generally leaps and bounds better than most Ohio bands. I don't think there is any coincidence the most of the top Ohio bands generally avoid OMEA competition for the Fall and are all located in SW Ohio.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 10:50:57 GMT -6
Does anyone have the 5A MSBA results 1. 91.500 - William Mason2. 85.600 - Campbell County 3. 83.500 - Lakota West4. 81.750 - Kettering Fairmont5. 81.600 - Miamisburg 6. 77.700 - Milford 7. 76.950 - West Clermont 8. 76.300 - Fairfield 9. 72.300 - Lebanon Compare to the BOA Indianapolis Super Regional Prelims two weeks earlier: --88.25 William Mason --81.68 Lakota West --74.65 Kettering Fairmont The spread from Mason to West didn't change much, but Fairmont narrowed their gap behind West from 7.03 to 1.75. Is that because Fairmont had great improvements over two weeks? Or is it some quirk of MSBA vs. BOA scoring, e.g., does MSBA have a higher floor than BOA?
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 6, 2023 11:09:08 GMT -6
Except, as I just explained above, it's really not. If anything, OMEA accepts more visual variety than BOA does. Accepts or rewards? OMEA has a wider demographic of bands that compete. rich schools, poor schools, large staffs taught by great directors, small staffs taught by poor educators and everything in between. Of course they accept more styles. My issue is that they reward them the same. A band could march simple drill, do it clean, and get a superior rating. A band could also present a grand visual program with extensive body work and extremely well coordinated music and visual design and still also get a superior rating. They are treated equally when they are not. Some bands settle for option A, take the easy way out and can be fat and happy. That will keep you successful in OMEA year after year. Other bands choose to be more elaborate and strive for a higher standard. OMEA rewards execution and not creativity. BOA also rewards cleanliness but also awards creativity and difficult much more than OMEA does. In the Grove City example from 2019, they always play wonderfully and basically cleanup every OMEA show they go to. In BOA they get eaten alive in visual because their color guard and visual design is secondary to the music is not on par with other comparable schools. I've been around this activity for a long time and nothing will convince me that OMEA rewards shows in the same way BOA does. OMEA doesn't provide the incentive for bands to push the envelope and excel above meeting a basic standard. IMO that is why bands in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and other states are generally leaps and bounds better than most Ohio bands. I don't think there is any coincidence the most of the top Ohio bands generally avoid OMEA competition for the Fall and are all located in SW Ohio. Man, it is pretty wild when finishing 27th out of 84 at the BOA Super Regional is considered getting "eaten alive," but ok. Grove City designs for the sheets in which they compete. It's not better or worse, it just is. And the one time Mason and Grove City competed against each other at an OMEA show, Mason won pretty comfortably. Bands from Indiana are better than bands from Ohio because the schools are larger and have more money. It has nothing to do with OMEA. There were more bands in Class A finals at ISSMA that fit in the BOA "Class AAAA" size than the total amount of AAAA high schools in the entire state of Ohio. That's not counting competitive marching bands, just total high schools period. Ohio generally does not have high schools with more than 2,500 students, and it's no irony that most of the few that do are the best programs in the state. When you say "most of the top Ohio bands avoid OMEA competition," besides Mason and Centerville (and this year Lakota West), who are you talking about? And I would most certainly disagree with the notion that Kentucky and Michigan are "leaps and bounds" above Ohio. Kentucky has great small bands, but if you compared the best bands in the state, Ohio is better. Michigan has a handful of great programs, but nowhere near the depth Ohio has. And finally, basically no one in Ohio is "fat and happy." Just about everyone is "cash-strapped and just trying to survive." And for those bands, OMEA is the perfect place for them.
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Post by ohbandfan on Nov 6, 2023 11:18:42 GMT -6
1. 91.500 - William Mason2. 85.600 - Campbell County 3. 83.500 - Lakota West4. 81.750 - Kettering Fairmont5. 81.600 - Miamisburg 6. 77.700 - Milford 7. 76.950 - West Clermont 8. 76.300 - Fairfield 9. 72.300 - Lebanon Compare to the BOA Indianapolis Super Regional Prelims two weeks earlier: --88.25 William Mason --81.68 Lakota West --74.65 Kettering Fairmont The spread from Mason to West didn't change much, but Fairmont narrowed their gap behind West from 7.03 to 1.75. Is that because Fairmont had great improvements over two weeks? Or is it some quirk of MSBA vs. BOA scoring, e.g., does MSBA have a higher floor than BOA? Typically MSBA scores trend higher than BOA. And they don’t have on field individual judges so individual technique isn’t typically judged at MSBA events. However, MSBA did rework their scoring system a few years ago to be a little lower than normal. Mason scored a 91.3 at championships last year, and topped 96 in semis/ 95 in finals. I would say yes Fairmont improved, but I wouldn’t expect them to be too far over 80 if at all if this were BOA.
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Post by philodemus on Nov 6, 2023 11:37:35 GMT -6
Kentucky has great small bands, but if you compared the best bands in the state, Ohio is better. Strong disagree. And I would argue the MSBA results from this previous weekend also disagree. William Mason is better than any band in Kentucky. After that... I would say the proof of your assertion is not in evidence. Sorry for the sidebar.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 12:10:32 GMT -6
Except, as I just explained above, it's really not. If anything, OMEA accepts more visual variety than BOA does. Accepts or rewards? OMEA has a wider demographic of bands that compete. rich schools, poor schools, large staffs taught by great directors, small staffs taught by poor educators and everything in between. Of course they accept more styles. My issue is that they reward them the same. A band could march simple drill, do it clean, and get a superior rating. A band could also present a grand visual program with extensive body work and extremely well coordinated music and visual design and still also get a superior rating. They are treated equally when they are not. Some bands settle for option A, take the easy way out and can be fat and happy. That will keep you successful in OMEA year after year. Other bands choose to be more elaborate and strive for a higher standard. OMEA rewards execution and not creativity. BOA also rewards cleanliness but also awards creativity and difficult much more than OMEA does. In the Grove City example from 2019, they always play wonderfully and basically cleanup every OMEA show they go to. In BOA they get eaten alive in visual because their color guard and visual design is secondary to the music is not on par with other comparable schools. I've been around this activity for a long time and nothing will convince me that OMEA rewards shows in the same way BOA does. OMEA doesn't provide the incentive for bands to push the envelope and excel above meeting a basic standard. IMO that is why bands in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and other states are generally leaps and bounds better than most Ohio bands. I don't think there is any coincidence the most of the top Ohio bands generally avoid OMEA competition for the Fall and are all located in SW Ohio. This is a fun discussion, and I'm enjoying all the different points of view. Should a tiny band without a guard from a tiny school (like Wellington in 2015 and Crooksville this year) not be able to get a I at state finals?
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Post by wyzeowel on Nov 6, 2023 12:31:59 GMT -6
1. 91.500 - William Mason2. 85.600 - Campbell County 3. 83.500 - Lakota West4. 81.750 - Kettering Fairmont5. 81.600 - Miamisburg 6. 77.700 - Milford 7. 76.950 - West Clermont 8. 76.300 - Fairfield 9. 72.300 - Lebanon Compare to the BOA Indianapolis Super Regional Prelims two weeks earlier: --88.25 William Mason --81.68 Lakota West --74.65 Kettering Fairmont The spread from Mason to West didn't change much, but Fairmont narrowed their gap behind West from 7.03 to 1.75. Is that because Fairmont had great improvements over two weeks? Or is it some quirk of MSBA vs. BOA scoring, e.g., does MSBA have a higher floor than BOA? You really can't compare the two on a score basis. You can't even compare one BOA to another BOA competition. Scores are all just relative to each other for a particular competition.. On top of that, placement in the competition also matters. Speaking about MSBA specifically, because they don't have the ground judges, they miss a lot. For instance,I'm quite surprised the amount of drops Campbell County's auxiliary had, but they had no penalty deductions for them and still beat Lakota West and Kettering Fairmont in that category. I've lost faith in MSBA competitions.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 6, 2023 12:34:14 GMT -6
Kentucky has great small bands, but if you compared the best bands in the state, Ohio is better. Strong disagree. And I would argue the MSBA results from this previous weekend also disagree. William Mason is better than any band in Kentucky. After that... I would say the proof of your assertion is not in evidence. Sorry for the sidebar. Campbell Co. is having an awesome year. Besides that, what are you talking about? There isn't a Kentucky band better than Centerville or Lakota East either...
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Post by rlrrll on Nov 6, 2023 12:38:34 GMT -6
Accepts or rewards? OMEA has a wider demographic of bands that compete. rich schools, poor schools, large staffs taught by great directors, small staffs taught by poor educators and everything in between. Of course they accept more styles. My issue is that they reward them the same. A band could march simple drill, do it clean, and get a superior rating. A band could also present a grand visual program with extensive body work and extremely well coordinated music and visual design and still also get a superior rating. They are treated equally when they are not. Some bands settle for option A, take the easy way out and can be fat and happy. That will keep you successful in OMEA year after year. Other bands choose to be more elaborate and strive for a higher standard. OMEA rewards execution and not creativity. BOA also rewards cleanliness but also awards creativity and difficult much more than OMEA does. In the Grove City example from 2019, they always play wonderfully and basically cleanup every OMEA show they go to. In BOA they get eaten alive in visual because their color guard and visual design is secondary to the music is not on par with other comparable schools. I've been around this activity for a long time and nothing will convince me that OMEA rewards shows in the same way BOA does. OMEA doesn't provide the incentive for bands to push the envelope and excel above meeting a basic standard. IMO that is why bands in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and other states are generally leaps and bounds better than most Ohio bands. I don't think there is any coincidence the most of the top Ohio bands generally avoid OMEA competition for the Fall and are all located in SW Ohio. Man, it is pretty wild when finishing 27th out of 84 at the BOA Super Regional is considered getting "eaten alive," but ok. Grove City designs for the sheets in which they compete. It's not better or worse, it just is. And the one time Mason and Grove City competed against each other at an OMEA show, Mason won pretty comfortably. Bands from Indiana are better than bands from Ohio because the schools are larger and have more money. It has nothing to do with OMEA. There were more bands in Class A finals at ISSMA that fit in the BOA "Class AAAA" size than the total amount of AAAA high schools in the entire state of Ohio. That's not counting competitive marching bands, just total high schools period. Ohio generally does not have high schools with more than 2,500 students, and it's no irony that most of the few that do are the best programs in the state. When you say "most of the top Ohio bands avoid OMEA competition," besides Mason and Centerville (and this year Lakota West), who are you talking about? And I would most certainly disagree with the notion that Kentucky and Michigan are "leaps and bounds" above Ohio. Kentucky has great small bands, but if you compared the best bands in the state, Ohio is better. Michigan has a handful of great programs, but nowhere near the depth Ohio has. And finally, basically no one in Ohio is "fat and happy." Just about everyone is "cash-strapped and just trying to survive." And for those bands, OMEA is the perfect place for them. I think you chose to take things out of context. I feel like most people would put Grove City in the top 5% of bands in Ohio but in a National competition with programs from other states they scores in the 67% percentile. It's a respectable showing Also, my fat and happy comment was taken out of context and has zero to do with money. It has to do with accepting status quo and not pushing for more. Where is the incentive for Grove City to do more? They can stay local and win grand champion at virtually every show or they can push their students to be even better performers on a national scale. Other schools choose to do differently. As you say, they design to the sheets. So if a band desires to compete at a higher level than what OMEA offers, why should they continue to do OMEA competitions if there is no reward or quality feedback given to help them reach that higher level? Also, since you brought money into the equation? How does OMEA help the underprivileged programs succeed? I personally know someone who teaches at an underprivileged program and doesn't take kids to solo and ensemble or district contest any longer because they get nothing beneficial from OMEA in their situation. They had a student get a III in solo and ensemble (probably deserved a II as far as I know) and the judge feedback as to why was simply revolving around the quality of the instrument the student was playing on. Not everyone can afford a top quality concert instrument. The one thing we can agree on is that OMEA is not right for everybody just like MSBA and BOA is not right for everybody. The question becomes what are the options for those people who don't have other options?
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -6
Speaking about MSBA specifically, because they don't have the ground judges, they miss a lot. For instance,I'm quite surprised the amount of drops Campbell County's auxiliary had, but they had no penalty deductions for them and still beat Lakota West and Kettering Fairmont in that category. I've lost faith in MSBA competitions.Well, that does it. We can't trust OMEA and we can't trust MSBA. I think BOA needs to take over all 81 Ohio band competitions. (To be clear: I'm just having a little fun here.)
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Post by bandfan2002 on Nov 6, 2023 13:02:52 GMT -6
Speaking about MSBA specifically, because they don't have the ground judges, they miss a lot. For instance,I'm quite surprised the amount of drops Campbell County's auxiliary had, but they had no penalty deductions for them and still beat Lakota West and Kettering Fairmont in that category. I've lost faith in MSBA competitions.Well, that does it. We can't trust OMEA and we can't trust MSBA. I think BOA needs to take over all 81 Ohio band competitions. (To be clear: I'm just having a little fun here.) It’s not always about the number of drops. It’s about how the performer recovers and the difficulty of the actual “work”.
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Post by bandfan2002 on Nov 6, 2023 13:03:39 GMT -6
MSBA Championship recaps are now posted online!
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 13:18:42 GMT -6
Is there a correct pronunciation of "EWI"?
I have heard "ee, double-you, why."
I have heard "you, wee". (Because of the word ewe, presumably.)
I have heard "ee, wee."
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 6, 2023 13:22:15 GMT -6
Man, it is pretty wild when finishing 27th out of 84 at the BOA Super Regional is considered getting "eaten alive," but ok. Grove City designs for the sheets in which they compete. It's not better or worse, it just is. And the one time Mason and Grove City competed against each other at an OMEA show, Mason won pretty comfortably. Bands from Indiana are better than bands from Ohio because the schools are larger and have more money. It has nothing to do with OMEA. There were more bands in Class A finals at ISSMA that fit in the BOA "Class AAAA" size than the total amount of AAAA high schools in the entire state of Ohio. That's not counting competitive marching bands, just total high schools period. Ohio generally does not have high schools with more than 2,500 students, and it's no irony that most of the few that do are the best programs in the state. When you say "most of the top Ohio bands avoid OMEA competition," besides Mason and Centerville (and this year Lakota West), who are you talking about? And I would most certainly disagree with the notion that Kentucky and Michigan are "leaps and bounds" above Ohio. Kentucky has great small bands, but if you compared the best bands in the state, Ohio is better. Michigan has a handful of great programs, but nowhere near the depth Ohio has. And finally, basically no one in Ohio is "fat and happy." Just about everyone is "cash-strapped and just trying to survive." And for those bands, OMEA is the perfect place for them. I think you chose to take things out of context. I feel like most people would put Grove City in the top 5% of bands in Ohio but in a National competition with programs from other states they scores in the 67% percentile. It's a respectable showing Also, my fat and happy comment was taken out of context and has zero to do with money. It has to do with accepting status quo and not pushing for more. Where is the incentive for Grove City to do more? They can stay local and win grand champion at virtually every show or they can push their students to be even better performers on a national scale. Other schools choose to do differently. As you say, they design to the sheets. So if a band desires to compete at a higher level than what OMEA offers, why should they continue to do OMEA competitions if there is no reward or quality feedback given to help them reach that higher level? Also, since you brought money into the equation? How does OMEA help the underprivileged programs succeed? I personally know someone who teaches at an underprivileged program and doesn't take kids to solo and ensemble or district contest any longer because they get nothing beneficial from OMEA in their situation. They had a student get a III in solo and ensemble (probably deserved a II as far as I know) and the judge feedback as to why was simply revolving around the quality of the instrument the student was playing on. Not everyone can afford a top quality concert instrument. The one thing we can agree on is that OMEA is not right for everybody just like MSBA and BOA is not right for everybody. The question becomes what are the options for those people who don't have other options? I think your last paragraph sums it up. However, I would strongly encourage you to keep an eye on OMEA in the future. Significant changes have already been made. Several of the caption heads that run the different divisions (Music, GE, Visual, etc) are people that never would have been in positions of authority a generation ago. The visual and color guard sheets were completely rewritten this year and now much more closely align with the sheets of other organizations such as BOA, and I’m told the remainder of the sheets will be rewritten in the next year or two. FWIW, I have had more than one BOA Regional Finalist band director tell me that this year they received far better feedback at OMEA shows than they did at MSBA. Take that for whatever it’s worth.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 13:35:35 GMT -6
FWIW, I have had more than one BOA Regional Finalist band director tell me that this year they received far better feedback at OMEA shows than they did at MSBA. Take that for whatever it’s worth. I often sit as high up and towards the center as I can and can pick up a few of the judges' comments (in both OMEA and BOA), and I would agree that what I hear from OMEA judges often sounds quite helpful. Although yesterday one of them was briefly misleading! There was a band I thought during the performance was likely to get a II, but then I heard one of the GE judges saying that the band had "the audience eating out of your hand right now," and I thought: I guess they'll be getting a I. Nope, they got a II. What was regularly true in the past, I can't say. I know that some Brunswick students I spoke to circa 2015 said they loved having my former band director, by then retired (and now retired from judging as well), on their panels because of the thoughtful comments he gave their shows. And on the subject of large vs. small bands, I spoke to him once a couple weeks after he judged a pretty stacked show, and the band he wanted to talk about from that event was tiny Fort Recovery, because he thought that, pound for pound, their 20-odd musicians were achieving the most of any band.
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Post by wyzeowel on Nov 6, 2023 13:49:45 GMT -6
Well, that does it. We can't trust OMEA and we can't trust MSBA. I think BOA needs to take over all 81 Ohio band competitions. (To be clear: I'm just having a little fun here.) It’s not always about the number of drops. It’s about how the performer recovers and the difficulty of the actual “work”. You're right, that's just an example. Uniformity was also lacking. From a music standpoint, their woodwind and brass features were off point as well and no more difficult that Lakota West's. But hey, I'm not a judge, just someone who's been doing music all my life, so what do I know. I'm am objective bystander here, there's nothing in it for me. But I definitely lost a little love for MSBA after seeing the recent scoring for the Championships at Mason. On to BOA GNs this weekend!
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Post by philodemus on Nov 6, 2023 14:42:59 GMT -6
There isn't a Kentucky band better than Centerville or Lakota East either... I found a video of Lakota East--they're good! But if your argument is that they are clearly and obviously better than Lafayette, Madison Central, or even Murray and Beechwood, I have to disagree. I'm not sure what would happen at such a hypothetical competition, but it wouldn't be the blowout of William Mason over Campbell County, and I don't think it's clear their name would be called last. Haven't found a video of the Jazz Band this year, so I will demure from judgement. Perhaps you're right.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 6, 2023 15:11:25 GMT -6
Compare to the BOA Indianapolis Super Regional Prelims two weeks earlier: --88.25 William Mason --81.68 Lakota West --74.65 Kettering Fairmont The spread from Mason to West didn't change much, but Fairmont narrowed their gap behind West from 7.03 to 1.75. Is that because Fairmont had great improvements over two weeks? Or is it some quirk of MSBA vs. BOA scoring, e.g., does MSBA have a higher floor than BOA? Typically MSBA scores trend higher than BOA. And they don’t have on field individual judges so individual technique isn’t typically judged at MSBA events. However, MSBA did rework their scoring system a few years ago to be a little lower than normal. Mason scored a 91.3 at championships last year, and topped 96 in semis/ 95 in finals. I would say yes Fairmont improved, but I wouldn’t expect them to be too far over 80 if at all if this were BOA. MSBA scores for the bottom end of championships toward the middle tend to be higher than BOA scores. Scores from the middle to the top do not. In the 2000s, Mason scored much closer to Centerville at MSBA than at BOA. Then the two were fairly even throughout the early teens. Now the gap is reversed - closer at MSBA than at BOA in favor of Mason. The gap difference noted between Lakota West and Kettering Fairmont is likely a product of the two factors. Fairmont got a boost from below, West had pressure from above - thus squeezing the scores together. Of course, this does not account for the possibility that Fairmont's performance improved significantly and West's did not as part of the coming together.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 6, 2023 15:13:59 GMT -6
Accepts or rewards? OMEA has a wider demographic of bands that compete. rich schools, poor schools, large staffs taught by great directors, small staffs taught by poor educators and everything in between. Of course they accept more styles. My issue is that they reward them the same. A band could march simple drill, do it clean, and get a superior rating. A band could also present a grand visual program with extensive body work and extremely well coordinated music and visual design and still also get a superior rating. They are treated equally when they are not. Some bands settle for option A, take the easy way out and can be fat and happy. That will keep you successful in OMEA year after year. Other bands choose to be more elaborate and strive for a higher standard. OMEA rewards execution and not creativity. BOA also rewards cleanliness but also awards creativity and difficult much more than OMEA does. In the Grove City example from 2019, they always play wonderfully and basically cleanup every OMEA show they go to. In BOA they get eaten alive in visual because their color guard and visual design is secondary to the music is not on par with other comparable schools. I've been around this activity for a long time and nothing will convince me that OMEA rewards shows in the same way BOA does. OMEA doesn't provide the incentive for bands to push the envelope and excel above meeting a basic standard. IMO that is why bands in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and other states are generally leaps and bounds better than most Ohio bands. I don't think there is any coincidence the most of the top Ohio bands generally avoid OMEA competition for the Fall and are all located in SW Ohio. This is a fun discussion, and I'm enjoying all the different points of view. Should a tiny band without a guard from a tiny school (like Wellington in 2015 and Crooksville this year) not be able to get a I at state finals? In an insular, small schools with tiny bands and little or no guard competition - certainly. In a "competition" with groups doing much more - that's where the debate lies.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 6, 2023 15:15:48 GMT -6
Compare to the BOA Indianapolis Super Regional Prelims two weeks earlier: --88.25 William Mason --81.68 Lakota West --74.65 Kettering Fairmont The spread from Mason to West didn't change much, but Fairmont narrowed their gap behind West from 7.03 to 1.75. Is that because Fairmont had great improvements over two weeks? Or is it some quirk of MSBA vs. BOA scoring, e.g., does MSBA have a higher floor than BOA? You really can't compare the two on a score basis. You can't even compare one BOA to another BOA competition. Scores are all just relative to each other for a particular competition.. On top of that, placement in the competition also matters. Speaking about MSBA specifically, because they don't have the ground judges, they miss a lot. For instance,I'm quite surprised the amount of drops Campbell County's auxiliary had, but they had no penalty deductions for them and still beat Lakota West and Kettering Fairmont in that category. I've lost faith in MSBA competitions. Drops by the guard don't get a "penalty" but rather just don't get extra credit above and beyond the general book achieved. The DCI "tick" system died a LONG time ago.
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Post by ohbandfan on Nov 6, 2023 15:29:33 GMT -6
MSBA scores for the bottom end of championships toward the middle tend to be higher than BOA scores. Scores from the middle to the top do not. In the 2000s, Mason scored much closer to Centerville at MSBA than at BOA. Then the two were fairly even throughout the early teens. Now the gap is reversed - closer at MSBA than at BOA in favor of Mason. The gap difference noted between Lakota West and Kettering Fairmont is likely a product of the two factors. Fairmont got a boost from below, West had pressure from above - thus squeezing the scores together. Of course, this does not account for the possibility that Fairmont's performance improved significantly and West's did not as part of the coming together. As the day has gone by I’ve been thinking that so I’m glad someone mentioned it. At the top, I would almost argue they’re a little low. But yes, toward the bottom they are generally higher. I just remember scoring 90-94 at championships and getting 85-87 the following week at GN, but I’m getting on and that was 10-14 years ago 😂
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 6, 2023 16:18:54 GMT -6
MSBA scores for the bottom end of championships toward the middle tend to be higher than BOA scores. Scores from the middle to the top do not. In the 2000s, Mason scored much closer to Centerville at MSBA than at BOA. Then the two were fairly even throughout the early teens. Now the gap is reversed - closer at MSBA than at BOA in favor of Mason. The gap difference noted between Lakota West and Kettering Fairmont is likely a product of the two factors. Fairmont got a boost from below, West had pressure from above - thus squeezing the scores together. Of course, this does not account for the possibility that Fairmont's performance improved significantly and West's did not as part of the coming together. As the day has gone by I’ve been thinking that so I’m glad someone mentioned it. At the top, I would almost argue they’re a little low. But yes, toward the bottom they are generally higher. I just remember scoring 90-94 at championships and getting 85-87 the following week at GN, but I’m getting on and that was 10-14 years ago 😂 Your experience is not unique transitioning from MSBA finals to Grand Nationals.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 16:20:41 GMT -6
I think if you had a time machine and used it to take a top tier band from late September/early October to Grand Nationals, they'd score much higher with the very same performance than they did four to six weeks earlier.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 6, 2023 16:21:31 GMT -6
There isn't a Kentucky band better than Centerville or Lakota East either... I found a video of Lakota East--they're good! But if your argument is that they are clearly and obviously better than Lafayette, Madison Central, or even Murray and Beechwood, I have to disagree. I'm not sure what would happen at such a hypothetical competition, but it wouldn't be the blowout of William Mason over Campbell County, and I don't think it's clear their name would be called last. Haven't found a video of the Jazz Band this year, so I will demure from judgement. Perhaps you're right. My point is as such… You take the best band in Ohio (Mason) and they’re better than the best band in Kentucky. You take the second best band in Ohio (Centerville), and they’re better than the second best band in Kentucky. Lakota East is better than the third, Lakota West is better than the 4th, etc. I think it gets more dramatic the farther down you go. For whatever reason several of those bigger bands don’t come to Grand Nationals, but last year the 7th highest scoring band from Ohio beat the 2nd highest scoring band from Kentucky, and two of the bands you mentioned were included in that. You don’t have to agree, and that’s alright.
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