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Post by thestraightestlegs on Nov 14, 2021 23:28:52 GMT -6
Perhaps others enjoy the video montage, I found it rather uninspiring. In past years, lining up for retreat seems to have involved three or four bands crammed like sardines in the tunnels leading from the four corners of the field, and sitting around in there for half an hour or so. You can see it in the YouTube videos of past years’ awards presentations from GN-the videos start with a long period of silence just showing kids in the bowels of the stadium. Maybe that had more to do with it than the part where they were on the field? What was most refreshing to me personally was being able to walk around the stadium and see virtually no fear in anyone's eyes. There were virtually no masks & it was glorious. It had the feel of a normal event, with the exception of the retreat, which was underwhelming on just about every level & has been discussed by posters other than myself. Despite some commenters shooting down the idea that it does matter & the kids had the exact same experience, without actually attending the event themselves, I am heartened that several posters stood up and said, yes, it was terrible and it did matter. Hopefully, normalcy returns next year. Cool
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 15, 2021 4:16:10 GMT -6
Warning: Nerd post As we know, BA set the highest score ever with 98.25. Since 1998 (settled on 12 finalist bands) Avon set the highest score ever for 3rd place with 96.65. The Woodlands tied the record for 4th place with 96.2 (Marian Catholic 2008). And Ronald Reagan set the record for 9th place with 91.45. The overall average for all 12 bands was also the highest in this era - 93.6. So 4 new or tied placement record scores, and the overall average highest since 1998. I did scan back to 1990 via Hornrank's dataset and saw nothing that changes the above. Scores were absurdly high for finals here. Not complaining though because the level of performances was exceptional. The scores for finals going back into the 70s are in the results thread on the history section. You will see that your reasearch does not change. I thought the scores in GN finals in 2019 could have been higher. I thought this year the scores seemed pretty on target. Of course, scores are all relevant. A score of 95 thirty years ago was for a much different performance than a score of 95 today. It is all relative.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 15, 2021 8:40:46 GMT -6
Who determines penalties for timing, warm-up area infractions, and the like? It's curious that all the Prelims penalties came from the bands in the same judging panel. There is a Timing & Penalties person on the field who checks for thing like boundary violations, prop heights, safety requirements on props that students get on, and timing. The event staff for all areas other than the performance field report any potential infractions to this individual. All rules violations and potential infractions are reported with recommendations by T&P to the Contest Director. This individual (or in the case of GN, two individuals working together) makes the final decision on whether to issue a penalty or not and the point value of said penalty. A relatively small portion of the potential penalties are eventually assessed. All of the items noted by T&P are discussed with the directors of the affected band. Even if no penalty is assessed, this is done to aid in the educational aspect of the activity. Conversations often involve a phrase such as "This happened and it needs to be avoided in the future. How can we help you meet the standard?"
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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 8:49:31 GMT -6
Who determines penalties for timing, warm-up area infractions, and the like? It's curious that all the Prelims penalties came from the bands in the same judging panel. There is a Timing & Penalties person on the field who checks for thing like boundary violations, prop heights, safety requirements on props that students get on, and timing. The event staff for all areas other than the performance field report any potential infractions to this individual. All rules violations and potential infractions are reported with recommendations by T&P to the Contest Director. This individual (or in the case of GN, two individuals working together) makes the final decision on whether to issue a penalty or not and the point value of said penalty. A relatively small portion of the potential penalties are eventually assessed. All of the items noted by T&P are discussed with the directors of the affected band. Even if no penalty is assessed, this is done to aid in the educational aspect of the activity. Conversations often involve a phrase such as "This happened and it needs to be avoided in the future. How can we help you meet the standard?" Yeah, the T&P judge is a just a peach. I still contend the CTJ front props should've drawn a penalty.
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Post by twhsalumniparent on Nov 15, 2021 9:53:38 GMT -6
2016 Marian Catholic 90.05. Only 13th place did not break 90. This would make Vista Ridge the highest scoring last place, though. Sure, I suppose. Still is the 2nd highest 12th place score however.
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Post by supersound on Nov 15, 2021 10:43:54 GMT -6
Congratulations Broken Arrow. The moment we saw that at St.Louis I think we all realized they were the front runners.
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Post by supersound on Nov 15, 2021 10:54:20 GMT -6
Some notes:
•I feel really bad for Round Rock. Their performance captions show that they’re performing at a pretty consistent level that would get them into finals, it’s GE where they’re struggling. Design is something I personally think RR has struggled with since 2017. They seem to be trying to carve a darker design niche but it really doesn’t seem to be working. They perform very very well, their music scores show this but the designs consistently hurt them.
•Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company.
•Vista Ridge could probably use some workshopping in the design department as well. I think they fell into the trap of overdesigning their nationals show that many other bands have fallen into the past. They’re not the only ones. I hope they’ll be more proactive in workshopping design than the RR team has in the past.
•Castle is back and it’s great. Loved to see them almost in finals, it really was a treat. Mustang is also a finals contender with a renewed fighting spirit. They’ll be in finals should they keep this up, especially on years where attendance falters a little bit.
•Dobyns-Bennett is one of those groups we’re going to have to keep an eye on. They just don’t lose their fighting spirit no matter the year, I could see them in the top half again in coming years.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 15, 2021 11:15:58 GMT -6
•Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company. Has Bixby been to GN? Where they were at this year they’re at least a solid semifinals contender. They could do with a bit more consistency, but the same could be said for my alma mater and a certain Oklahoma GN finalist (well, now that I say that, you could fit a few OK bands into that description). Oklahoma rush at GN 2022?
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Post by Allohak on Nov 15, 2021 11:22:12 GMT -6
•Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company. Has Bixby been to GN? Where they were at this year they’re at least a solid semifinals contender. They could do with a bit more consistency, but the same could be said for my alma mater and a certain Oklahoma GN finalist (well, now that I say that, you could fit a few OK bands into that description). Oklahoma rush at GN 2022? I've never seen Bixby live in my 17 years in/around the activity. Bring me more OK bands every year.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 15, 2021 11:22:58 GMT -6
•Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company. Has Bixby been to GN? Where they were at this year they’re at least a solid semifinals contender. They could do with a bit more consistency, but the same could be said for my alma mater and a certain Oklahoma GN finalist (well, now that I say that, you could fit a few OK bands into that description). Oklahoma rush at GN 2022? More Oklahoma at GN would be a wonderful thing.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 15, 2021 11:28:18 GMT -6
Has Bixby been to GN? Where they were at this year they’re at least a solid semifinals contender. They could do with a bit more consistency, but the same could be said for my alma mater and a certain Oklahoma GN finalist (well, now that I say that, you could fit a few OK bands into that description). Oklahoma rush at GN 2022? I've never seen Bixby live in my 17 years in/around the activity. Bring me more OK bands every year. Their show this year was an excellent mirror to Castle’s. I would have loved to have seen them at the same competition. We need Bixby, BA, Jenks, Mustang, Union, Choctaw, and Owasso to all make the trip up sometime 🙏🏻 It’d be fun to see how placements trade a couple weeks after OBA.
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 15, 2021 11:48:09 GMT -6
Some notes: •I feel really bad for Round Rock. Their performance captions show that they’re performing at a pretty consistent level that would get them into finals, it’s GE where they’re struggling. Design is something I personally think RR has struggled with since 2017. They seem to be trying to carve a darker design niche but it really doesn’t seem to be working. They perform very very well, their music scores show this but the designs consistently hurt them. •Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company. •Vista Ridge could probably use some workshopping in the design department as well. I think they fell into the trap of overdesigning their nationals show that many other bands have fallen into the past. They’re not the only ones. I hope they’ll be more proactive in workshopping design than the RR team has in the past. •Castle is back and it’s great. Loved to see them almost in finals, it really was a treat. Mustang is also a finals contender with a renewed fighting spirit. They’ll be in finals should they keep this up, especially on years where attendance falters a little bit. •Dobyns-Bennett is one of those groups we’re going to have to keep an eye on. They just don’t lose their fighting spirit no matter the year, I could see them in the top half again in coming years. I think Vista Ridge's Vento show was just too abstract. Also the ending lacked the pop that 2019 and 2018 had. I think Vento went a little ambiguous on design this year for Blue Springs and Vista Ridge and that hurt some. With that said I understand the situation and both really didn't have much of a 2020 season so the fact that they both made finals is just fantastic at all. Round Rocks 9th in Music Ensemble sounds about right. The rest of the ordinals were in the teens which also is about right. I must say they had their best run in semis but the whole show just fell very flat. The props were pretty sub par, the music is pretty but didn't coordinate with the visual much. Their drumline was featured but they didn't seem quite as clean compared to past years. Still a great band but i'd say they got kind of lucky in 2019 that that show clicked enough to get into finals but this couldn't. What does in the shadow of Apollo really mean? When you have to ask these questions after seeing the show, the design isn't working.
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Post by northbanddad on Nov 15, 2021 11:56:05 GMT -6
I've seen it mentioned multiple times before and specially during this weekend, this is probably the most competitive Grand Nationals in history. After the smoke of battle has cleared, what does everyone think now?
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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 11:57:08 GMT -6
What does in the shadow of Apollo really mean? When you have to ask these questions after seeing the show, the design isn't working.
Show themes are overrated. Castle did a show about the light bulb and Thomas Edison. It doesn't have to be deep and complicated
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Post by buckeyebandfan on Nov 15, 2021 13:05:17 GMT -6
Yeah, the T&P judge is a just a peach. I still contend the CTJ front props should've drawn a penalty. What specific rule do you think was violated? The T&P sheet for any potential penalty includes the number of the rule in the adjudication handbook that would apply. marching.musicforall.org/adjudication/
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 15, 2021 13:21:59 GMT -6
What does in the shadow of Apollo really mean? When you have to ask these questions after seeing the show, the design isn't working. Show themes are overrated. Castle did a show about the light bulb and Thomas Edison. It doesn't have to be deep and complicated of course it doesn't have to be complicated. But it does need to make sense
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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 13:35:08 GMT -6
What does in the shadow of Apollo really mean? When you have to ask these questions after seeing the show, the design isn't working. Show themes are overrated. Castle did a show about the light bulb and Thomas Edison. It doesn't have to be deep and complicated of course it doesn't have to be complicated. But it does need to make sense I am not even sure that is the case. It can help to have an easily accessible theme, but not a need.
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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 13:46:41 GMT -6
Yeah, the T&P judge is a just a peach. I still contend the CTJ front props should've drawn a penalty. What specific rule do you think was violated? The T&P sheet for any potential penalty includes the number of the rule in the adjudication handbook that would apply. marching.musicforall.org/adjudication/23.01 (pulling the applicable part): No participant may be, or be placed on, any portion of any prop/staging where the participant’s feet are more than six (6) feet above the playing surface of the stadium, unless appropriate safety railing and/or other safety equipment are in place and use. There were times when it appeared participants' feet were above 6 feet on a platform that was open on 2 or 3 sides. Now I am basing it on video and long distance in-person viewing, so it is possible that the platform was at slightly less than 6'.
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 15, 2021 13:49:47 GMT -6
of course it doesn't have to be complicated. But it does need to make sense I am not even sure that is the case. It can help to have an easily accessible theme, but not a need. I think the correct wording is, there is not much continuity of thought
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 15, 2021 14:04:42 GMT -6
What specific rule do you think was violated? The T&P sheet for any potential penalty includes the number of the rule in the adjudication handbook that would apply. marching.musicforall.org/adjudication/23.01 (pulling the applicable part): No participant may be, or be placed on, any portion of any prop/staging where the participant’s feet are more than six (6) feet above the playing surface of the stadium, unless appropriate safety railing and/or other safety equipment are in place and use. There were times when it appeared participants' feet were above 6 feet on a platform that was open on 2 or 3 sides. Now I am basing it on video and long distance in-person viewing, so it is possible that the platform was at slightly less than 6'. If the T&P judges think something is CLOSE to being too tall, they will measure it (usually after the band exits the field). I personally witnessed two items being measured for height during the event (one was 11' 10" tall plus an attached microphone stand that was 4" above the top, making the overall prop 12' 2" - a violation that was called out to the contest directors). CTJ's props were not one of the things measured. Six feet is pretty easy to eyeball from ground level as it's relatively close to an individual's height.
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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 14:07:24 GMT -6
23.01 (pulling the applicable part): No participant may be, or be placed on, any portion of any prop/staging where the participant’s feet are more than six (6) feet above the playing surface of the stadium, unless appropriate safety railing and/or other safety equipment are in place and use. There were times when it appeared participants' feet were above 6 feet on a platform that was open on 2 or 3 sides. Now I am basing it on video and long distance in-person viewing, so it is possible that the platform was at slightly less than 6'. If the T&P judges think something is CLOSE to being too tall, they will measure it (usually after the band exits the field). I personally witnessed two items being measured for height during the event (one was 11' 10" tall plus an attached microphone stand that was 4" above the top, making the overall prop 12' 2" - a violation that was called out to the contest directors). CTJ's props were not one of the things measured. Six feet is pretty easy to eyeball from ground level as it's relatively close to an individual's height. Yep. Multiple times participants' feet were above the head level of someone on the ground. I know at least one item that was measured (and has been multiple times by BOA) but it has never been over height.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 15, 2021 14:12:52 GMT -6
If the T&P judges think something is CLOSE to being too tall, they will measure it (usually after the band exits the field). I personally witnessed two items being measured for height during the event (one was 11' 10" tall plus an attached microphone stand that was 4" above the top, making the overall prop 12' 2" - a violation that was called out to the contest directors). CTJ's props were not one of the things measured. Six feet is pretty easy to eyeball from ground level as it's relatively close to an individual's height. Yep. Multiple times participants' feet were above the head level of someone on the ground. I know at least one item that was measured (and has been multiple times by BOA) but it has never been over height. Above the head of someone on the ground doesn't always mean over six feet off the ground. Above the head of thebigtall - no need to measure, it's way too high. Above my head at all - clearly over six feet, but measure it for "proof." Above Allohak's head - worth measuring to be sure it's okay. Ten inches above my wife's head - still below six feet.
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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 14:16:06 GMT -6
Yep. Multiple times participants' feet were above the head level of someone on the ground. I know at least one item that was measured (and has been multiple times by BOA) but it has never been over height. Above the head of someone on the ground doesn't always mean over six feet off the ground.No, but it is worth a measure. They were close and lacked proper safety railings. Of course it wasn't some A band with no chance of being in contention...
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riot
Senior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by riot on Nov 15, 2021 16:33:43 GMT -6
What does in the shadow of Apollo really mean? When you have to ask these questions after seeing the show, the design isn't working. Show themes are overrated. Castle did a show about the light bulb and Thomas Edison. It doesn't have to be deep and complicated Castle parent here. Joked with my wife that the show is about the incandescent bulb, but all the lights in the show were LEDs.
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Post by banddad85 on Nov 15, 2021 18:09:57 GMT -6
Some notes: •I feel really bad for Round Rock. Their performance captions show that they’re performing at a pretty consistent level that would get them into finals, it’s GE where they’re struggling. Design is something I personally think RR has struggled with since 2017. They seem to be trying to carve a darker design niche but it really doesn’t seem to be working. They perform very very well, their music scores show this but the designs consistently hurt them. •Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company. •Vista Ridge could probably use some workshopping in the design department as well. I think they fell into the trap of overdesigning their nationals show that many other bands have fallen into the past. They’re not the only ones. I hope they’ll be more proactive in workshopping design than the RR team has in the past. •Castle is back and it’s great. Loved to see them almost in finals, it really was a treat. Mustang is also a finals contender with a renewed fighting spirit. They’ll be in finals should they keep this up, especially on years where attendance falters a little bit. •Dobyns-Bennett is one of those groups we’re going to have to keep an eye on. They just don’t lose their fighting spirit no matter the year, I could see them in the top half again in coming years. 1) Design is a huge thing. It can make or break your competitive season. More bands should be as brave. Stop using training wheels on your competitive show and actually try to write it yourselves! What a concept! 2) How is BA's win encouraging to Oklahoma bands? Are bands selected to finals or as champion because of the state they come from? I only felt that way one time, Lawrence Central in either 2001 or 2004, when BOA moved to Indy. 3) Castle deserves a lot of credit. 4) I don't understand the love for DB, but they consistently make finals. I found their show very, very boring considering the musical selections are extremely overdone. Obviously, several judges disagreed. 5) Espirit de Corps Award: What a joke that this was. Are you kidding me? They need to revise the criteria (& a very dated script) as to what goes into selecting the band. Just because Mustang couldn't secure school busses does not mean they automatically were the best band that embodies all of the wonderful things about sportsmanship over the actual competitive weekend. They got dealt a tough blow and still made it. Who selects this award?
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banddad2021
Full Member
Proud Dad of a Student Marcher
Posts: 32
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Post by banddad2021 on Nov 15, 2021 18:21:06 GMT -6
I've seen it mentioned multiple times before and specially during this weekend, this is probably the most competitive Grand Nationals in history. After the smoke of battle has cleared, what does everyone think now? It was the most competitive GN in history, top four score over 96, superb shows by all the bands, just a great three days to be a fan of Marching
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Post by buckeyebandfan on Nov 15, 2021 18:28:37 GMT -6
Above the head of someone on the ground doesn't always mean over six feet off the ground. No, but it is worth a measure. They were close and lacked proper safety railings. Of course it wasn't some A band with no chance of being in contention... Are you saying you don't think it was measured? And that an experienced BOA band would create a prop that didn't follow the guidelines?
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Post by Allohak on Nov 15, 2021 18:29:30 GMT -6
Some notes: •I feel really bad for Round Rock. Their performance captions show that they’re performing at a pretty consistent level that would get them into finals, it’s GE where they’re struggling. Design is something I personally think RR has struggled with since 2017. They seem to be trying to carve a darker design niche but it really doesn’t seem to be working. They perform very very well, their music scores show this but the designs consistently hurt them. •Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company. •Vista Ridge could probably use some workshopping in the design department as well. I think they fell into the trap of overdesigning their nationals show that many other bands have fallen into the past. They’re not the only ones. I hope they’ll be more proactive in workshopping design than the RR team has in the past. •Castle is back and it’s great. Loved to see them almost in finals, it really was a treat. Mustang is also a finals contender with a renewed fighting spirit. They’ll be in finals should they keep this up, especially on years where attendance falters a little bit. •Dobyns-Bennett is one of those groups we’re going to have to keep an eye on. They just don’t lose their fighting spirit no matter the year, I could see them in the top half again in coming years. 1) Design is a huge thing. It can make or break your competitive season. More bands should be as brave. Stop using training wheels on your competitive show and actually try to write it yourselves! What a concept! 2) How is BA's win encouraging to Oklahoma bands? Are bands selected to finals or as champion because of the state they come from? I only felt that way one time, Lawrence Central in either 2001 or 2004, when BOA moved to Indy.3) Castle deserves a lot of credit. 4) I don't understand the love for DB, but they consistently make finals. I found their show very, very boring considering the musical selections are extremely overdone. Obviously, several judges disagreed. 5) Espirit de Corps Award: What a joke that this was. Are you kidding me? They need to revise the criteria (& a very dated script) as to what goes into selecting the band. Just because Mustang couldn't secure school busses does not mean they automatically were the best band that embodies all of the wonderful things about sportsmanship over the actual competitive weekend. They got dealt a tough blow and still made it. Who selects this award? Lawrence Central WON in 2001 and 2004, so...no, they didn't just get advanced because they were from Indiana. Also, GN was in Indy long before these years. Bands in attendance can be nominated for the Esprit de Corps award by Event Staff and volunteers. I can tell you with 100% certainty that Mustang didn't get it only because of the challenges they faced in getting to Indy. The students, staff, and parents were extremely pleasant all weekend, went out of their way to be helpful to other groups while in the competition flow, cheered vehemently for their competitors, etc.
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Post by thewho on Nov 15, 2021 18:41:48 GMT -6
Espirit Corps exists as a sign of the enduring spirit of the activity and a discouragement malicious behavior, such as not showing up for the retreat on the one of the highest echelons of the activity.
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Post by marchingmaniac on Nov 15, 2021 18:42:41 GMT -6
I've seen it mentioned multiple times before and specially during this weekend, this is probably the most competitive Grand Nationals in history. After the smoke of battle has cleared, what does everyone think now? This year has a good argument for being the most competitive in history. Scores aside the quality of productions among the finalists (and in the 4-7 range in particular) were remarkable. I'd say Flower Mound, Marcus, the Woodlands, and CTJ could've made a serious run at a medal in another less stacked year (Personally I think Flower Mound should've medaled this year).
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