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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 18:51:57 GMT -6
No, but it is worth a measure. They were close and lacked proper safety railings. Of course it wasn't some A band with no chance of being in contention... Are you saying you don't think it was measured? And that an experienced BOA band would create a prop that didn't follow the guidelines? A poster (who works exit flow) said they weren’t measured. I think there is a ton of wiggle room in the statement “proper safety precautions” that a band may stretch. Maybe UIL has different rules and someone assumed that by following one set of rules, they were ok. Maybe they got them from someone else and assumed it met the rules. Having built props there are always conflicts between design and reality. I’m just saying that it sure looked out of compliance and I’m surprised they weren’t even measured (according to the poster working the field exit).
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Post by buckeyebandfan on Nov 15, 2021 19:15:32 GMT -6
I assumed they were measured at Austin or San Antonio.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 15, 2021 19:22:21 GMT -6
A poster (who works exit flow) said they weren’t measured. I think there is a ton of wiggle room in the statement “proper safety precautions” that a band may stretch. Maybe UIL has different rules and someone assumed that by following one set of rules, they were ok. Maybe they got them from someone else and assumed it met the rules. Having built props there are always conflicts between design and reality. I’m just saying that it sure looked out of compliance and I’m surprised they weren’t even measured (according to the poster working the field exit). The CTJ props in question were not deemed needing to be measured by two different T&P judges. I can speak to the fact that they were not taller than me.
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Post by paddy on Nov 15, 2021 21:40:14 GMT -6
A poster (who works exit flow) said they weren’t measured. I think there is a ton of wiggle room in the statement “proper safety precautions” that a band may stretch. Maybe UIL has different rules and someone assumed that by following one set of rules, they were ok. Maybe they got them from someone else and assumed it met the rules. Having built props there are always conflicts between design and reality. I’m just saying that it sure looked out of compliance and I’m surprised they weren’t even measured (according to the poster working the field exit). The CTJ props in question were not deemed needing to be measured by two different T&P judges. I can speak to the fact that they were not taller than me. The silver multi-level platforms were not taller than you? The props on the front sideline that held multiple kids at once as shown at the 8 minute mark of this video?
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Post by principalagent on Nov 15, 2021 21:58:44 GMT -6
Espirit Corps exists as a sign of the enduring spirit of the activity and a discouragement malicious behavior, such as not showing up for the retreat on the one of the highest echelons of the activity.
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Post by macwinlin on Nov 15, 2021 22:05:33 GMT -6
Only platforms (on which a performer is standing) over 6’ above ground level require a supportive rail, and honestly, a single vertical pole would suffice. Railing doesn’t have to surround or cage the performer.
The performer could be standing on a platform that is 5’11” (and technically, even 6’) above the ground and it would not need any support for the performer to grasp.
The other hard props were not over 12’ tall, so they were in compliance.
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Post by dbalash on Nov 15, 2021 22:21:26 GMT -6
I've seen it mentioned multiple times before and specially during this weekend, this is probably the most competitive Grand Nationals in history. After the smoke of battle has cleared, what does everyone think now? Yeah, I don't think so. 2002 comes to mind; the first time a ton of Texas bands came in the same year.
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Post by abtwitch on Nov 16, 2021 0:10:44 GMT -6
Espirit Corps exists as a sign of the enduring spirit of the activity and a discouragement malicious behavior, such as not showing up for the retreat on the one of the highest echelons of the activity. Ratio'd
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 16, 2021 6:06:59 GMT -6
The CTJ props in question were not deemed needing to be measured by two different T&P judges. I can speak to the fact that they were not taller than me. The silver multi-level platforms were not taller than you? The props on the front sideline that held multiple kids at once as shown at the 8 minute mark of this video? Those bars on at least one side of the platform meet the standard for fall protection. Nothing over 6 feet was unprotected. Didn't realize you were talking about those platforms as "props" over six feet.
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Post by supersound on Nov 16, 2021 8:09:20 GMT -6
Some notes: •I feel really bad for Round Rock. Their performance captions show that they’re performing at a pretty consistent level that would get them into finals, it’s GE where they’re struggling. Design is something I personally think RR has struggled with since 2017. They seem to be trying to carve a darker design niche but it really doesn’t seem to be working. They perform very very well, their music scores show this but the designs consistently hurt them. •Broken Arrows win is going to be great encouragement for Oklahoma bands in following in their footsteps. Great futures for Bixby, Jenks, Mustang and the Oklahoma company. •Vista Ridge could probably use some workshopping in the design department as well. I think they fell into the trap of overdesigning their nationals show that many other bands have fallen into the past. They’re not the only ones. I hope they’ll be more proactive in workshopping design than the RR team has in the past. •Castle is back and it’s great. Loved to see them almost in finals, it really was a treat. Mustang is also a finals contender with a renewed fighting spirit. They’ll be in finals should they keep this up, especially on years where attendance falters a little bit. •Dobyns-Bennett is one of those groups we’re going to have to keep an eye on. They just don’t lose their fighting spirit no matter the year, I could see them in the top half again in coming years. 1) Design is a huge thing. It can make or break your competitive season. More bands should be as brave. Stop using training wheels on your competitive show and actually try to write it yourselves! What a concept! 2) How is BA's win encouraging to Oklahoma bands? Are bands selected to finals or as champion because of the state they come from? I only felt that way one time, Lawrence Central in either 2001 or 2004, when BOA moved to Indy. 3) Castle deserves a lot of credit. 4) I don't understand the love for DB, but they consistently make finals. I found their show very, very boring considering the musical selections are extremely overdone. Obviously, several judges disagreed. 5) Espirit de Corps Award: What a joke that this was. Are you kidding me? They need to revise the criteria (& a very dated script) as to what goes into selecting the band. Just because Mustang couldn't secure school busses does not mean they automatically were the best band that embodies all of the wonderful things about sportsmanship over the actual competitive weekend. They got dealt a tough blow and still made it. Who selects this award? You seem a little weirdly angry
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Post by supersound on Nov 16, 2021 8:09:49 GMT -6
The silver multi-level platforms were not taller than you? The props on the front sideline that held multiple kids at once as shown at the 8 minute mark of this video? Those bars on at least one side of the platform meet the standard for fall protection. Nothing over 6 feet was unprotected. Didn't realize you were talking about those platforms as "props" over six feet. The last time I remember there actually being talk about the height rule in discussions was with Vista Ridges boxes in 2018. A long while ago. I might be misremmebering.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Nov 16, 2021 8:59:19 GMT -6
I love my home state of Texas. And I love Hebron. But Broken Arrow had this one after watching both live this weekend and last. Hebron takes music, Broken Arrow takes visual (helped by the box), but Broken Arrow probably also takes GE, buoyed by VGE. I can see them splitting MGE judges, as they were both tops for different reasons. My thoughts verbatim.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 16, 2021 17:38:26 GMT -6
It's pretty fun that the same day that Ohio's best high school band played in Grand Nationals Finals with a "Top Gun" show, Ohio's best college band also presented a "Top Gun" show:
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 16, 2021 17:45:40 GMT -6
I love my home state of Texas. And I love Hebron. But Broken Arrow had this one after watching both live this weekend and last. Hebron takes music, Broken Arrow takes visual (helped by the box), but Broken Arrow probably also takes GE, buoyed by VGE. I can see them splitting MGE judges, as they were both tops for different reasons. My thoughts verbatim. I have said this before and I will say it again. Broken Arrow had in my opinion the best performance from an overall general effect perspective ever. Powerful and emotional music with visuals that flowed seamlessly with the music.
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Post by supersound on Nov 16, 2021 18:00:41 GMT -6
I have said this before and I will say it again. Broken Arrow had in my opinion the best performance from an overall general effect perspective ever. Powerful and emotional music with visuals that flowed seamlessly with the music. Love your opinion, totally valid but I have to give some credit to some older shows like Marcus 2006 or Reagan 2003 before I declare Broken Arrow as the best GE ever. BA this year is still absolutely in some of the best ever but I’m not 100% it’s the best ever. It’s still beautifully designed in a very poignant way though.
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Post by supersound on Nov 16, 2021 18:09:44 GMT -6
Espirit Corps exists as a sign of the enduring spirit of the activity and a discouragement malicious behavior, such as not showing up for the retreat on the one of the highest echelons of the activity. I’ve been a little out of the loop the past few days, what exactly is this referencing?
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Post by marchingmaniac on Nov 16, 2021 18:18:57 GMT -6
I’ve been a little out of the loop the past few days, what exactly is this referencing? Could be wrong but I think someone here earlier mentioned that Claudia Taylor Johnson did not attend the finals retreat in the stands and that the students were already packing for the flight back to Texas. Which is odd behavior considering they were the Esprit de Corps winner in 2019.
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Post by colad on Nov 16, 2021 18:36:23 GMT -6
I have said this before and I will say it again. Broken Arrow had in my opinion the best performance from an overall general effect perspective ever. Powerful and emotional music with visuals that flowed seamlessly with the music. Love your opinion, totally valid but I have to give some credit to some older shows like Marcus 2006 or Reagan 2003 before I declare Broken Arrow as the best GE ever. BA this year is still absolutely in some of the best ever but I’m not 100% it’s the best ever. It’s still beautifully designed in a very poignant way though. From my understanding, Reagan 2003 didn't even win GE that year. I do love Reagan and Westfield from that year though. 2 totally different shows but I thing BOA has evolved to a much deeper level since 2003. As for Broken Arrow, I don't think I have ever seen a better DCI show... The GE was undeniable in my opinion. Congrats to BA and all of the finalist. What a year!
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 16, 2021 18:57:27 GMT -6
I have said this before and I will say it again. Broken Arrow had in my opinion the best performance from an overall general effect perspective ever. Powerful and emotional music with visuals that flowed seamlessly with the music. Love your opinion, totally valid but I have to give some credit to some older shows like Marcus 2006 or Reagan 2003 before I declare Broken Arrow as the best GE ever. BA this year is still absolutely in some of the best ever but I’m not 100% it’s the best ever. It’s still beautifully designed in a very poignant way though. Totally respect that and yes it is very subjective. Certainly a lot of good contenders and era that the show occurred in certainly comes into play.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 16, 2021 22:09:13 GMT -6
I’ve been a little out of the loop the past few days, what exactly is this referencing? Could be wrong but I think someone here earlier mentioned that Claudia Taylor Johnson did not attend the finals retreat in the stands and that the students were already packing for the flight back to Texas. Which is odd behavior considering they were the Esprit de Corps winner in 2019. That’s what it is. The rumor is that they were displeased with the bottom half performance time when they were expecting a medal. Which appalls me! So I’m really hoping there’s a better explanation for why the entire band were no-shows.
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Post by marchingmaniac on Nov 16, 2021 22:40:20 GMT -6
Could be wrong but I think someone here earlier mentioned that Claudia Taylor Johnson did not attend the finals retreat in the stands and that the students were already packing for the flight back to Texas. Which is odd behavior considering they were the Esprit de Corps winner in 2019. That’s what it is. The rumor is that they were displeased with the bottom half performance time when they were expecting a medal. Which appalls me! So I’m really hoping there’s a better explanation for why the entire band were no-shows. There are some great people over there and the students are all really nice. I know expectations were high over there this season considering their history of success but Lipman's an excellent director who runs a tight ship so I'm hoping this isn't the case.
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Post by supersound on Nov 16, 2021 22:45:35 GMT -6
Could be wrong but I think someone here earlier mentioned that Claudia Taylor Johnson did not attend the finals retreat in the stands and that the students were already packing for the flight back to Texas. Which is odd behavior considering they were the Esprit de Corps winner in 2019. That’s what it is. The rumor is that they were displeased with the bottom half performance time when they were expecting a medal. Which appalls me! So I’m really hoping there’s a better explanation for why the entire band were no-shows. I would definitely not jump the gun on that rumor. I don’t want to talk badly of any program regardless of their actions in the way that. People are doing currently.
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Post by supersound on Nov 16, 2021 22:50:33 GMT -6
On the terms of “expecting a better placement.” I imagine CTJ and Reagan are in that camp.
I do want to note that the two highest placing bands were Flower Mound and The Woodlands, the only two bands to skip a respective Texan contest. I do believe the time off helped the students in a lot of ways and I hope bands stop stuffing their calendars like we saw this year. I don’t think schools should to GN on a state year, it’s just not good for the kids.
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Post by principalagent on Nov 17, 2021 7:01:10 GMT -6
That’s what it is. The rumor is that they were displeased with the bottom half performance time when they were expecting a medal. Which appalls me! So I’m really hoping there’s a better explanation for why the entire band were no-shows. I would definitely not jump the gun on that rumor. I don’t want to talk badly of any program regardless of their actions in the way that. People are doing currently. I am not a mind reader, so I will not speak to the motivations behind the action. However: (1) they were the only band missing; (2) their placement is fully not what they expected: (3) there was a vote offered by their directors to the students; (4) they overwhelmingly chose not to go; (5) and they did not have flights out of town until late morning. There’s a bit of smoke here.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 17, 2021 7:18:47 GMT -6
I would definitely not jump the gun on that rumor. I don’t want to talk badly of any program regardless of their actions in the way that. People are doing currently. I am not a mind reader, so I will not speak to the motivations behind the action. However: (1) they were the only band missing; (2) their placement is fully not what they expected: (3) there was a vote offered by their directors to the students; (4) they overwhelmingly chose not to go; (5) and they did not have flights out of town until late morning. There’s a bit of smoke here. My flight left Indianapolis at 1:41 p.m. and I was in the security line with about half the CTJ contingent immediately in front of me and half immediately behind me. The students all seemed to be in a good mood. Adults, not so much.
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Post by supersound on Nov 17, 2021 7:55:39 GMT -6
I would definitely not jump the gun on that rumor. I don’t want to talk badly of any program regardless of their actions in the way that. People are doing currently. I am not a mind reader, so I will not speak to the motivations behind the action. However: (1) they were the only band missing; (2) their placement is fully not what they expected: (3) there was a vote offered by their directors to the students; (4) they overwhelmingly chose not to go; (5) and they did not have flights out of town until late morning. There’s a bit of smoke here. You know this is hard to hear. A lot of bands had unexpected results this season, Vista Ridge, Homestead etc and those bands still had the sportsmanship to show up and be friendly at their respective retreats. I understand skipping a retreat if you’re Leander in 2016 and your flight takes off in two hours because the flights were poorly planned and you need to get out of there asap, but skipping because you’re disappointed doesn’t seem to be the way to go. It’s just disappointing to hear about this, especially after their 2019 trip where their volunteers and students were honestly 100% deserving of that Al Castronovo award, at least from my perspective. This just feels unsportsmanlike. A director shouldn’t be holding a vote like that to be honest but I respect CTJ’s director as an educator, I just can’t see his vision on this decision.
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stix
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by stix on Nov 17, 2021 8:15:08 GMT -6
I am not a mind reader, so I will not speak to the motivations behind the action. However: (1) they were the only band missing; (2) their placement is fully not what they expected: (3) there was a vote offered by their directors to the students; (4) they overwhelmingly chose not to go; (5) and they did not have flights out of town until late morning. There’s a bit of smoke here. My flight left Indianapolis at 1:41 p.m. and I was in the security line with about half the CTJ contingent immediately in front of me and half immediately behind me. The students all seemed to be in a good mood. Adults, not so much. If this is not true and there was another reason why they did not attend the retreat, someone from CTJ needs to jump on and dispel this rumor. Poor sportsmanship is not a good look for anyone. If this is true, it is appalling and shows poor sportsmanship and a sense of entitlement. We either trust the judges, or we don't, and if we trust the judges, we have to trust their decisions. If you are not going to respect the judge's decisions, then don't play. CTJ placed precisely where they should have given the mix of bands and their performances, according to the experts. There were 87 bands in this competition who didn't make finals, and any one of them would have been humbled and grateful to have had CTJ's place.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Nov 17, 2021 12:49:42 GMT -6
Lots of assumptions are being made here. CTJ did the same thing in San Antonio due to the lack of a full retreat option, but nobody is roasting them for that. They placed 3rd overall in San Antonio so the idea that they were angry with their placement doesn’t jibe. I spoke briefly with Mr. Lipman about it a short time ago and he insisted that the decision was made in the best interest of his exhausted kiddos and not due to anything more scandalous than that. He also said that if there had been a full retreat, the full band ABSOLUTELY would have stayed for it.
I definitely understand that some people will continue to think poorly of the Claudia Taylor Johnson band because of this, but being a former school administrator myself who didn’t always make the most “popular” decisions in order to do what I thought was best for my students and my staff, I completely back Jarrett and his staff for choosing to do what they felt was right for the kids.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 17, 2021 12:54:37 GMT -6
Lots of assumptions are being made here. CTJ did the same thing in San Antonio due to the lack of a full retreat option, but nobody is roasting them for that. They placed 3rd overall in San Antonio so the idea that they were angry with their placement doesn’t jibe. I spoke briefly with Mr. Lipman about it a short time ago and he insisted that the decision was made in the best interest of his exhausted kiddos and not due to anything more scandalous than that. He also said that if there had been a full retreat, the full band ABSOLUTELY would have stayed for it. I definitely understand that some people will continue to think poorly of the Claudia Taylor Johnson band because of this, but being a former school administrator myself who didn’t always make the most “popular” decisions in order to do what I thought was best for my students and my staff, I completely back Jarrett and his staff for choosing to do what they felt was right for the kids. "And now, you know the rest of the story."
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Post by Allohak on Nov 17, 2021 13:00:09 GMT -6
Lots of assumptions are being made here. CTJ did the same thing in San Antonio due to the lack of a full retreat option, but nobody is roasting them for that. They placed 3rd overall in San Antonio so the idea that they were angry with their placement doesn’t jibe. I spoke briefly with Mr. Lipman about it a short time ago and he insisted that the decision was made in the best interest of his exhausted kiddos and not due to anything more scandalous than that. He also said that if there had been a full retreat, the full band ABSOLUTELY would have stayed for it. I definitely understand that some people will continue to think poorly of the Claudia Taylor Johnson band because of this, but being a former school administrator myself who didn’t always make the most “popular” decisions in order to do what I thought was best for my students and my staff, I completely back Jarrett and his staff for choosing to do what they felt was right for the kids. "And now, you know the rest of the story." If that were the full story, maybe. I'm not fully buying the "our kids were tired" bit, and this will very much remain impactful on my level of respect for the CTJ program in the future. But I'm just a random guy in Ohio. It is what it is, and what it is is incredibly unfortunate.
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